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How To Cut CPAs While Increasing Prices – Brent Kocal | SWW137

brent kocal how to cut CPA while increasing prices
Tags: core promise, extended power offer, funnel optimization, sales funnel, Marketing Funnel

Recently, I offered to do a funnel review and optimization for a few students. Brent Kocal raised his hand immediately and we went to work.

Brent’s offer is in the personal development space. He helps his clients do more in 12 weeks than other people do in an entire year.

That’s the “promise” but what he’s really selling is self-discipline and how to become friggin’ Marine (metaphorically speaking.)

As you can imagine, no one wants to pay money to do hard work. So nailing his Power Offer was a challenge.

But we did. And Brent and I caught up to talk about his progress since we optimized his funnel.

You'll Discover

  • The first time I reviewed Brett’s funnel - his CPLs, CPAs, the major problem he needed to fix, and what happened when he fixed it [02:59]

  • How to nail your core promise when you’re selling something people “need” but don’t “want” - no one wants to buy a product teaching self-discipline [09:59]

  • The secret sauce behind Brent’s sales funnel - his extended power offer… and his current monthly revenue [16:35]

  • What happens when you have a good coach in your corner and you act on their advice - tbh, Brent has the perfect attitude about this [23:54]

  • How to reduce the time you spend dealing with tire-kickers and bad-fit prospects to zero [27:22]

… And much more!

Episode Transcript

Brent Kocal: [00:00:00]

And I tell him like, listen, you build a fire, you come to me and I’m going to pour gasoline on that bitch. And we are going to make it so huge and so hot that it consumes everything in front of it.

Joel Erway: [00:00:16]

Hey, what’s going on? It’s Joel Erway here and welcome to another very special episode of sold with webinars. And today you are in for an amazing treat. I brought on a guest today, a good friend of mine, a student inside of high ticket courses. And his name is Brent Kocal from Ruthless Results. Did I get that right, Brent? Is it Ruthless Results?

Brent Kocal: [00:00:35]

You got that right! You got them both right. Most people just mess up the last name, but you got that and the name of the course, so good job.

Joel Erway: [00:00:41]

Kocal with a K. It’s stuck in the back of my mind. So I’m very excited to have Brent on the show here today. We are going to be talking about his journey with his high ticket course, with his mini webinar, with his power offer, because we’ve gone through our own journey, working with Brent and I’m very excited to have him talk about his program.

Talk about his journey and his funnel. And we will dive into all of the relevant information. The reason why I wanted to bring Brent on here is because all the time, all the time, I have people who are interested in joining high ticket courses or working with our agency. They say, Joel, does this only work for make money programs or is this only B2B?

And it’s like, listen, you know, Brent, is in personal development. We have tons of testimonials and tons of case studies of people who work in non-business realms, non-business spaces and so anytime that we get great results, I’d like to share those stories. So, Brent, welcome to the show my man.

Brent Kocal: [00:01:48]

Thank you very much for having me on Joel. I’ve been looking forward to this.

Joel Erway: [00:01:51]

It’s going to be a lot of fun. It’s gonna be a lot of fun. Let me provide a little bit of context before we jump into this interview, because I think that will be the best way to prep this audience and prep my listeners for what we’re about to talk about.

A few months ago. Well, more than a few months ago, Brent, you joined the program. I don’t know, I’m going to say like six months ago, cause we also had a 20 minute consult call, right?

Brent Kocal: [00:02:15]

Yep. We did.
Joel Erway: [00:02:16]

Yup. So I remember that call. I was on my walk and I remember listening to your offer and I’m like, okay, great. Like, I really liked the offer.

And then it was after that call, you went and you executed your very, uh, like you do what you say, like you put your head down and you go and you execute. And so a few months later, I was reviewing, I was building out some great, uh, some new training content for the program and I wanted to review five, six or seven funnels.

And so I put out a message into our community and say, Hey, listen, if you are open to sharing your funnels with our private community, with our members, I will do a review of your funnel. And the only thing you need to provide me as you’re give me your stats, give me all your links, et cetera, et cetera.

So, Brent, you were one of the people who submitted your funnel for review and the stats that you had given me originally, you were profitable, but you were struggling. And so, I’ll kind of share with what I remember going through your funnel, but you know, essentially a $5,000 offer, working.

I’ll have you talk about who your offer is for in just a second, but you have a $5,000 offer, but your cost per customer acquisition was somewhere between 3 and $4,000 to acquire a $5,000 customer. And that’s like, yes, you’re making money technically, but you’re doing a lot more work than we need to.

And so I looked at everything in your funnel. And I saw like, okay, you’re acquiring leads for a decent cost, meaning it was like around four or five bucks for an email address. But the gap that I saw with you was your lead to application ratio was like abysmal. I mean, it was like 1%, like 1% of all the people who opted in were applying.

I’m like, okay, great. We know exactly what we need to focus on right now. And so I gave you some tips. Told you that basically the frame of your funnel was more like a lead generation follow. Not necessarily like a, Hey, come work with me style funnel. And then I looked at some of your ad copy and I said, Hey, listen, I think we’ve got to change your ad copy to something that speaks a little bit more real than something that I saw on your personal profile or on your Facebook page.

And you made those changes and it was a game changer for you. So that’s the context. That was a couple of months ago. Bring us up to speed now with kind of where you are now and what has changed.

Brent Kocal: [00:04:36]

Oh, for sure. Like that conversation that you and I were having, I want to say it was like August or September that I’m going to look back on as the pivot point, the point where stuff just started working, because before I found you, and before I found high ticket courses, I’d been just struggling, just trying to figure out it’s like, what the hell?

How is this supposed to work? And I was following the advice of like, all of the people that we’d look to as gurus in the space when it comes to direct response marketing. And so I got caught in the trap, like so many people do where it’s like, here’s my free ebook or here’s my free whatever. Like as lead magnet.

And in my mind, I was still thinking like that was the way to roll and it never even occurred to me. Before we started talking that it’s like, Hey, everybody’s wise to the game, right? When you see an ad on Facebook or Instagram or YouTube, like people are smart enough to know that, Hey, we’re selling you something.

And so I think that they. I think that there’s an appreciation and a respect that you have for the consumer and your prospects when you’re simply making them that power offer. You know, it was actually really like by happenstance that you ended up reviewing my funnel and reviewing my ad because like, I was never on Facebook.

Part of my reason like that I do a lot of stuff is that I just drown out social media, as much as I possibly can. And so Facebook like that got cut. And for whatever reason, I was on there one day and I saw you post in the group, that’s like, Hey, I want to review a couple of these things to add some additional content.

You’ve got to share everything with me but do it. And so like sweet let’s go. Right. I can always get more feedback because like you said, it was like it was working at a level that I hadn’t experienced before, but it was still not the level that I was demanding, the level that I knew that I could get.

And so when you look through it, just those couple of tweaks, right? I think the biggest tweak that you gave me that I think has probably given me the most traction was changing it from a lead gen funnel to an offer funnel. Right. So I switched it out and, you know, I mean, I’ve done a lot of video work.

And so I ended up shooting this video for the opt-in that it’s insane that it works. It’s insane that that works. And it’s insane to me that the ad works because they’re both kind of mirror each other because in both of those things, really all I’m doing is telling you about how I live. Right? Wake up at 4:35 workout at 5:00 AM.

Weigh my chicken breast before I cook then measure the amount of almond milk I put in my smoothies, meditate for 40 minutes a day. Take my wife out on two dates a week. Take each kid out on a day to week, do my days to execute the best I can in my business. Right. It’s stuff like that. And it’s like, that’s what the video says too, but it just ended up working.

And I think one of the things that like our conversations helped me understand was that there needs to be an offer beyond the power offer because my ads were a power offer, but there was an inconsistency and it can grow when you got to the landing page and it was like, Oh, it’s lead gen. Wait a second. This is this guy like selling me something or is he giving me a free ebook?

And so there was an incongruence with that. And once you gave me that pivot in that shift, I moved into the direction of like, no, we’re making an offer here right now. And so we go through that process. The opt-in rate went up. That video is nuts. I’m doing 38%, that video is now for four months old I think.

Three or four months old and I’ve been doing 40% for that entire time. It’s insane what that video is doing. And you get to the other side of that and the process changed there too. And I think that that was something where in the personal development space, when you know, really I’m the product it’s like, you believe that I’m a mentor and a guide that can get you what you want faster or you don’t.

And so they needed to experience me and the way that I live and the things that I think about, and that moves on into the process of the VSL that I ended up putting together and I’ve done several tweaks to that. To jack the application rate. So right now we’re running at about a 7 to 8% application rate versus the 1% we were doing before you did the tweak.

So that’s been good. And the cost of customer acquisition has gone down but crazy part is, is that the price has gone up. Last week I closed my first deal cause I’m doing the $5,000 product for a group coaching. That’s like 14 weeks, but then I moved it up because I’m thinking like we can get results in a lot of different areas for these people.

And so just last week I sold my first $28,000 offer with a $2,000 custom customer acquisition.

Joel Erway: [00:09:21]

That was so that was from cold traffic, right? Or was that to an existing customer?

Brent Kocal: [00:09:25]

That was cold ass traffic. That was like, dude never met me before. Watched a couple of videos, followed up on a couple of email sequences.

He said, I’ve got a 10 email onboarding sequence. He had hit three of those when he filled out his application and booked his call. And that was the extent that he’d had any experience with me.

Joel Erway: [00:09:47]

Yeah, that’s amazing, man. So, talk about your offer a little bit. Like who do you work with? Like who is your target audience and what do you help them accomplish?

Brent Kocal: [00:09:58]

Yeah. So essentially who I’m ended up working with is either entrepreneurs or people who work for somebody else, but control their own income because how I ended up framing it, because essentially what I’m teaching people is I’m teaching people the skill of self-discipline. And this is something that like for a long time, like I remember talking to one of my coaches years ago where he was like, well, what do you want to talk about?

Because I’d had this voice in my head for like 10 years, that was saying, dude, you got to talk about some, like, you need to help people do something. And I’m like, okay, great. What? And I tried a couple different things, and nothing was really working. And this collision that I had with one of my other coaches, we said like, well, if you could talk about anything that you want and not get paid for it, what would it be?

And I said, okay, Self-discipline, like, it was instant. Like I didn’t have to think about it. And, but then I said like, but it’s just something I have, like, I’ve always had this. It’s not a skill that you can learn and he pushed back and he’s like, no, you can figure out a method that will teach people self-discipline and it turns out there’s a science behind it, right?

Like the way that our brains work, it’s just consciously making a choice that’s different from the easy default choices that we make and a reprogramming that ends up allowing you to do more. But I thought about it. And I’m like, if I just offer people self-discipline, they’re gonna be like, no I don’t want any of that. Because like you think about discipline and it doesn’t sound fun.

It sounds awful. You go like, god I don’t want to wake up that early. I don’t want to work out. I don’t want to like, count all the stuff that I eat and all this shit. Right. They don’t want to do that. So what I ended up doing was thinking like, how can I package that in a way, that will be very attractive through power offer sequence.

And so what it ends up being is do more in 12 weeks than most people do in a year, because all it takes is discipline. Like one of the things that I’m convinced of is that every problem that we experience in life is a self-discipline problem. Right? If you don’t make enough money, it’s a self-discipline problem because you’re not doing the stuff that you know you need to do.

If your body isn’t where you want it to be, then it’s not like a problem of, I don’t know what to do. Like that might be a story you tell yourself, but ultimately, it’s about not doing the things that you said you needed to do in order to get what you want. Same thing with relationships, if your primary relationship with your husband or your wife or your kids, whatever, isn’t what you want it to be.

It’s because you’re not taking the actions and doing the things that you know, you need to do to get what you ultimately want. And so that’s where self-discipline comes into the equation. It’s understanding one, what you want and getting clear on that, because one of the things that I’ve found, and this was a problem for me for years was most people don’t know what they want.

They will know what they don’t want, but knowing what they actually want and receiving clarity around that is a key portion of what I do. Everybody says they want “success”. But there has to be a definition to that. Our brains don’t work that way with these kind of like fuzzy, esoteric ideas that says like, Oh, I want success or I want a better body.

It’s like, okay, great. What does that mean? Like, I can appreciate that there’s inspiration there, but we’ve got to provide a framework around it and we’ve got to reprogram our brains a little bit in order to get to the spot where you ultimately want to get. So it ends up being like massive productivity and like what’s crazy is the results.

Like, I wasn’t even expecting this from like what the people would do with it standpoint because you know, when you put it out there, you’re not really sure. Like, are people gonna like come into this, it’s one thing to be a marketer. It’s another thing to be a closer. But what I’ve found is, is the third thing is to be a powerful coach, like that’s three distinct skill sets and it was crazy.

I had, uh, one of my one-on-one clients, it was a local guy come into the office just a couple of weeks ago. And he was sharing what his results were. So he started his company in 2013, in 2014, they plateaued in sales. But doing the same damn thing since 14 to 2020, he spent 90 days with me and he doubled his sales, which is just like, I wasn’t expecting that.

So you just kind of get like blown away. And it’s just like super humbling experience because it’s like, I didn’t do that. All I did was give him some pivots, show him a little bit of a different way of thinking about it. And it opened up his field of vision in a way he couldn’t see before. He couldn’t believe the possibility that he was able to double in that amount of time.

But then what he did was he did the work. Which for me is gratifying because that’s what I’m teaching people. I’m teaching you how to just do the work. Everybody’s looking for a shortcut, right? You go out, you like you get up, go to the grocery store, and you walk out of the grocery store. And in the little, like the magazines that are there is like men’s health and women’s health and we’ve all been conditioned this way through modern marketing, like men’s health, women’s health is always like get six pack abs, but never do a sit up and eat pizza all the time.

It’s like, get this without that. You know in your mind it’s not true, you know you have to do the work. But you still kind of like fall trap to it.

Joel Erway: [00:15:06]

One of the things that I want to highlight that you talked about which is so important. I mean, it is probably the most important thing, especially with anybody who is struggling with their offer is struggling to get traction.

And you did this immediately. When you were talking about how do you speak to your marketplace? You said, you know, well, what I really want to do is I want to teach self-discipline and you said, well, if I tell people that they’re going to have self-discipline, nobody’s going to respond.

Right? And so that’s when you came up with the do more in 12 weeks than you have done in a year. This is the concept of like selling people what they want and giving them what they need. Meaning people aren’t really looking for a self-discipline, that’s going to fall on deaf ears, but having that promise of more in 12 weeks than you have done in a year, like that’s what they want.

And if you’re listening right now and you are in a unique market that you feel is not going to respond like this is the formula that you need to do, right. If you have put offers out there and they’re not responding, I mean, I could probably think of five people off the top of my head where they’re struggling with their offer.

And it’s because of this. Like, it’s because you’re falling in love with your offer and you’re not, you’re not positioning in a way that your market actually wants it and you’re not selling what they want and then giving them what they need. Your message is falling flat because you’re trying to sell your product and your people aren’t buying your product, they’re buying the end result.

And I can say without a shadow of a doubt, that is, uh, your marketing funnel in your system is so attractive because of that power offer that you’re now blowing up with. I mean your engagement is off the freaking charts. Like you look at your ad and like you have thousands of people who liked, commented and shared. You hit that video on your landing page which is extremely powerful.

I mean, so there’s no wonder why it is working so well. But I wanted to highlight that because that is like the secret sauce. If anyone wants to know what the secret sauce is, like, I just gave it to you. Brent just gave it to you. Why he’s been able to blow up with his high ticket courses, high ticket offer.

So, what are your revenue numbers like monthly revenue numbers now, like after you’ve made that change? Like what have you gone to?

Brent Kocal: [00:17:22]

So just last month in October, we did 55 grand in gross revenue. And then this month right now, I’m on pace for 80. Yeah. And you got to understand, like, there’s a lot of ads that go into this because we are driving tons of traffic.

Like I’ve 1got an ads team that’s driving traffic to that right now because I was doing it all myself and I was spending like five grand a month on ads, which was scary as hell for me because I’d never had an ad work before. And that’s the other thing that I like, I give so much credit to your methodology and the way that you think about things in the guidance that you’ve given me, I never had an ad work.

And so I was scared shitless to go like I’m gonna spend $5,000 a month on ads. Cause I’m just looking at that as like lighting it on fire. Like, I’ll give it to Mark Zuckerberg and he’ll light it on fire and dance around it. Right. But ultimately, it’s like, when you recognize that you’ve got a message and the message resonates and the message works.

You’ve got to lean into this crazy place of fear, because right now we’re spending $35,000 a month on ads. This would have been completely impossible for me to even wrap my brain around and have the confidence in doing, if it wasn’t for understanding the power offer concept where it’s like, no, I’m not giving you something free.

And then I’m going to sneakily try to sell you something. It’s like, no, I’ve got something of value here and you either resonate with it and you want it, or you don’t. And I’m cool with it either way, right? I mean, we can talk about sales calls in a minute, but it’s like, I’m cool with it either way. I don’t care if you opt in or if you don’t, my message is what my message is.

And if it’s something that you want or something that you need, or if it resonates and it hits you with the right time, cool, let’s talk about it. If it doesn’t then no sweat. Right? You saw all the comments, like you see all the likes and the shares and stuff, but the comments underneath it are funny because you know you hit the right chord when people are arguing, fighting with each other or talking shit about you underneath the post.

Like, it’s crazy how many people are like, that’s not true. That’s not true. That’s not true. And I’m like, you can think what you want, makes no difference to me because I’m going to pull in 80K off of this thing this month.

So that’s the way it goes. But understanding that it’s like the 35,000 that we’re spending on ads this month, one, is generating 80K on the front end, but two, it’s how many leads? I don’t even have. I should’ve had my leads numbers prepared coming into this, like the number of leads that we generated this month. Right now we’re generating leads at 475 I think is our average for the past two months.

It’s all of those leads that are now in my email sequence and that are continually getting hit with my emails, because what we don’t understand or what I didn’t understand was that a lot of times the right people want to buy. They’re just not ready to buy today. Especially in the personal development space, because it’s scary to decide that you are going to make a change.

Then you are going to invest in yourself. It’s really easy when it’s concrete, right? I’ll build your webinar for you. Not that that’s not difficult because I know that there’s a science and an art to what you do in this, but there’s something concrete. It’s like, you’re going to hand that over to them in a certain period of time. Where I’m saying like, listen, you come into my world, you got two choices.

One, you can either leave if you don’t like what I have to say. Or two, you come with me and we go to the moon. And that’s really like, that’s the thing. So some people are going to be ready a lot longer, like the funnel that’s existing today. Like I don’t know how to even project what it’s going to do for us revenue wise in 2021.

Joel Erway: [00:21:16]

Yep. Yeah. I want to talk about your power offer that’s crushing it right now. So, when I was going through your funnel, you sent me a link to your ads and thank God that I clicked on like your business page where you’re running the ads from because you had this note. I think it was actually a note like I’ve never even, I could be wrong about this, but I think it was a note that you wrote on your page and like, I’ve never read notes before, but there was the first sentence caught my attention and it was, and I’m going to curse.

So if you guys don’t like cursing, I apologize, but this is how it was, this is what got my attention. It was, I’m intense as fuck. And I’m like, Whoa, like, okay, you want to talk about something that grabs your attention? That’s what it is. And so I kept reading it and it broke like every rule of advertising because everything that you read right now, is like, you got to talk about your prospects.

It’s all about them. It’s all about them, not about you. And, one of my mentors, his name is Travis Sago talks about like the core triggers that get people to respond of like why they would actually purchase an offer. And he has this methodology called the timer methodology, and it’s an acronym for all the different reasons and, T is actually for time, I is for identity.

And that’s what your ad, that’s what your message there was all about. Your posts there was, I am intense. Maybe you can go through it, but I’m going to go off the top of my head, but like I’m intense. I wake up if, you know, just like I wake up at 4:35 and measure my chicken, i measure my milk. Right. And it was like, it was X.

You were the person that they want to become. That is identity. And so the identity play was talking about who they want to become. And for personal development, this works really, really well. I ended up coming up. I had a version of identity mine’s a really long power offer ad.

That was all about identity. And that worked extremely well when we launched it a year and a half ago. And I took another look at that and I’m like, dude this post right here. You need to use this as your, power offer. Like just make a couple tweaks and make the offer. But like, this is exactly what you need to be running.

Like it’s a great example of an ad that gets attention, that stands out above the noise, and it gets people to say like, wow, and gets them to ultimately take action. So, when I reviewed your funnel and I talked about that, like, what was going through your mind when I talked about the ad, did you say, like, did you question it, just be honest, did you question it or would be like oh no, this makes sense. And you ran with it, like, what did you think about?

Brent Kocal: [00:24:08]

No, I didn’t question anything that you said, because I’m like, I clearly don’t have this game dialed in, man. Joel knows what he’s talking about, whatever he says, I’m just going to do. If he’s got an ad, he says like, take a picture of yourself in your underwear.

I’ll be like, cool. Let’s post a picture of me and my underwear. Like I don’t care, but don’t use that. So don’t like text me and say, Hey dude, post a picture of yourself in your underwear cause now I’m wise to your game. But like at the point I was just, I was so frustrated, and I was just like, I just couldn’t figure out how to make it work any better because, you know, I was profitable. Right.

I mean, we were making two grand per client that was coming in the door, but it wasn’t enough to keep me going. The crazy part is, is it’s not like I’m doing this coaching and mentoring of people as like my core moneymaking enterprise, right?

I’ve got other businesses that have had for a decade or more that wind up being the moneymakers for me in my life. This is is about doing what I feel called to do. And so I’m still just frustrated because it had to do better than it was doing. And so I was willing to listen to whatever you had to say.

Joel Erway: [00:25:24]

Yep. Yeah, it was funny because I saw it come across my feet and like, you know, you drop the curse word in your ad because they wouldn’t let you run that. But now it’s just, I’m intense. And then here’s what I do every day. And then you end it with like, I’m on a mission to work with my ideal avatar. Either you’re in or you’re out or, you know, who’s coming with me or something like that.

Brent Kocal: [00:25:45]

What it says is it’s like, it’s something to the effect and I forget what the copy says, but it’s like, I’m going with, or without you. And that’s the whole thing and that’s something that’s really important in the sales conversation too, is that there’s not a hint of neediness in that, which is like, please click here.

And it’s like, no, I mean, I know what I’m doing. And I’m serious in what I said earlier on this thing, which is that you’ve got two choices when you come into my world. One, you get out because you don’t like what I have to say, or you don’t like what I look like. You don’t like what I sound like. You get out. The other choice is, you come with me and we go to the moon. And like that’s genuinely how I feel.

And granted, I’ve got myself in a good situation in my life through like all of my business enterprises where every sales call I get on. It’s really me interviewing them to see if I’m going to give them an offer. So like, if you looked at our rates of application to sales calls, those wouldn’t be awesome because we’re actually screening those people.

I’m not just letting them go straight through the book. It’s like, I need to know that you genuinely want to go because I want to work with people who want to expand. I don’t want people who like want to kick the tires. I don’t want to work with people who are looking for a shortcut. And so it’s like, that’s just how we roll.

Joel Erway: [00:27:03]

Yup. Well, let’s talk about your sales calls now. So all your applications, What does it look like in terms of like the types of people who come through the funnel? Do you get a lot of tire kickers now because it is personal development? Like, what does a qualified applicant look like and what does an unqualified applicant look like?

Brent Kocal: [00:27:23]

So what we’ve got is we push them through a jot form. That’s the application process. That’s linked up into a page and click funnels, which is what we use for the platform. And what I’m finding is that you can pick the tire kickers out just so easily, because these are the people that write one word or one sentence.

It’s like one of the things that I do and I’ve took a lot of it off of your example in high ticket courses about what your application needs to look like. Cause I hadn’t really done an application process before, but what are the questions that you get into is what’s the single biggest thing you feel like you need help with right now?

And when people just write discipline or money, I’m going like you’re not getting a text message from us because I know that you’re not the right candidate. You can tell the right candidate based on the depth of the response that they put in that, because also you need to understand that what you’re doing through the application process is you’re flipping the prize frame because most of the time, people that have the money believe that they’re the prize.

They think that they’re the ones that should be sought after. Which is what’s so powerful about forcing people to go through an application process, because now you’re saying, well, wait a second, wait a second. You can’t give me your credit card right now. I don’t know you. I don’t know anything about you.

Explain to me why I should consider investing my time in you. And you know, I mean, that’s like the bravado way to say it. I don’t say it like that in the actual application, but that’s really what you’re doing from a psychological perspective to the prospects when they come through an application process and there’s truth to it too, because I do only want to work with people who genuinely want to expand and who are ready for the journey that I want to take them on.

And so, you can spot that one, with the number of words that they write on the application. Two, the other thing that’s like a dead giveaway, and this is directly from you. It’s like, you’ve got something that says, Hey, describe what best fits you. And it’s like a three option thing. I have the financial ability to invest in myself right now.

I have the ability to generate the financial ability to invest in myself. And I think I don’t have the financial resources to invest in myself. And so every time somebody writes, I think I don’t have the financial resources to invest in myself then they get a different email through the autoresponder that just says, Hey, are you sure about this?

And if you’re sure about this, then here’s the link to the podcast. Here’s a link to some other resources, watch these, do some work on your own, come back to us when you’re ready. But what we’re doing when we get the applications is we’re like actually reading them and then we’re sending those people texts.

Right? So if you send an application in and it’s like one that where I want to talk to you, you’re going to get a text from us, like an actual text, not a chat bot text. And what that does is it tells you like, Hey, we reviewed your application. Looks good. We’d love to have a one-on-one conversation with you to talk about x, whatever they said was the biggest thing that they needed in their application.

And then we put the link to the application page, or not the application page, but to the calendar page right underneath that. And so then they go to that page and they don’t all go there. Right. Because I see in the discussion group a lot when I go in there is people complain like, Oh, you know, these people don’t text me back. They don’t email me back.

It’s like that happens because people get triggered. And they’re bored. And so they say, Oh, I’m going to take the next 15 minutes. And I’m just going to fill out this application. And that saved me from doing what I needed to do for 15 minutes.

That’s cool. You don’t get a text back from everybody, but again, when I only want to work with the committed, like I’m not interested in the interested, I want to work with the committed. They go through, they’ll schedule the call, but once they hit submit on that scheduling link, they go immediately to a pre-frame video.

And that video is helping them understand. A, what is going to happen on the call? B, it also helps them start to think the way that I need them to think when they’re on the call. So I’m asking them my first couple of questions from my sales conversation on that video, because I want them to start thinking about it because I want them to come out of that call better than they came in.

Whether they’re ultimately going to work with me or not. And I close out the call by tele or close out that video by pointing to additional proof of a result videos below. So my case study videos are below there. So by the time they get on the phone with me, they’re pre-framed like crazy.

Right. You pre-frame through the application process, you pre-frame through the text message. You pre-frame through the video that says what to expect on this call. That’s where I float the price of it too. And then you’re pre-frame with the results that people get. So by the time I get on the calls with these people, it’s really a process of interviewing them about what they’re struggling with right now, understanding why that’s even a problem.

Right. Cause people don’t think like, well, why is it a problem that I’m struggling with this? And so sometimes you have to help them see that. And then ultimately, it’s painting the picture of the possibility, which is like, what’s possible for you? Like, I walk them through the art and science of what I do because it’s part art on the front end, the conceptualization and the creation of what you actually want to achieve.

And then the science portion of it, which is the brain science and the framework that allows you to go at this level where you are doing more in 12 weeks than most people are doing in a year. And we paint the possibility or just like, Hey, like, what’s the deal?

Like, how has this work? Like, is this something that like, can you believe that this result is possible for you in your life? And it’s a really cool conversation to have. Right. And not all of them by, but I don’t actually make offers to all of them on the call because if I don’t think that you’re actually going to do the work, then I don’t make the offer.

And I tell people that upfront on the call, I go like, listen, one of the things that we’re going to do while we’re doing this, like, I’m going to ask you a series of questions. This Is going to guide this conversation. Your job is to be a hundred percent straight up and honest with me on this call because I don’t tolerate lies to myself.

Like I was a liar to myself for like 35 years, over the last seven years I’ve recognized that and woke up to that fact. And so now it’s just like 100% honesty with myself. 100% honesty with everybody else. And they need to understand right from the get-go that, that is the game that I live and that they need to play in that space if they want to continue with the conversation.

And so from there, it’s like, Hey. One of the things that we’re going to be doing on this call here is based on the way that you respond to me and the questions that I have, I’m going to be working out in my mind. If it makes sense for me to offer you a space in one of my programs, whether it’s the one-on-one program or whether it’s a group program. And what you’re going to be doing in your own mind is you’re going to be thinking about the way that I respond to you.

The way my energy feels coming through this phone. And you’re going to decide if I’m a coach and a mentor that is somebody that can help you get further along in the game, then you can get on your own and help get you there faster. And if both those answers are yes, which by the way, it’s not always the answer.

Like I don’t always give you an offer on this call. So please don’t stress if you don’t get one, because I’m not stressed if I give you an offer and take it. Makes no difference in my day, right? What I’m doing there is one, I’m telling them the truth, but two, I’m removing neediness immediately, which changes the conversation that we have going forward.

But tell them like, listen, if both those things match up, then what we’re going to do at the end of this call is you’re going to put a deposit down on your tuition and then we’re going to get going. If you’re in the one-on-one game, we’re going to start like, as soon as I’ve got an opening in my schedule if you’re in the group game, then you’re going to start a couple of weeks out whenever I’ve got the next group rolling.

Joel Erway: [00:35:25]

Yeah. Yeah. That’s extremely powerful. I mean, framing is everything when you’re enrolling into high-end programs. I mean, because the last thing that you want is somebody who feels like they are the prize where you’re chasing them, just because they have a credit card. And that’s not how to run it at all.

Like that attracts the wrong type of customer. And it puts you in a horrible position as the leader, as the expert. And so if you’re listening right now, like that was an excellent masterclass into how to change that framing, how to change that positioning. So you are the prize and not the person with the credit card. A hundred percent.

Brent Kocal: [00:36:06]

Oh, for sure like that, like in itself, if people that are listening to this can get themselves into that framing mentally, their entire game is going to shift. It’s not a question of, if it will, it just will.

Joel Erway: [00:36:22]

Now you mentioned you raised the price, right? So it was originally 5k. What’s the price now? What did you bump it up to?

Brent Kocal: [00:36:29]

So for the group coaching, it’s still a $5,000 offer. Okay. But then I added one-on-one and I added one-on-one well, at the beginning I had one-on-one for like five grand, because I couldn’t convince like, your energy’s gotta be right when you’re asking for the money, right?

If I’m asking five grand, then my energy’s got to match the five grand and I had to get myself to that space. And that’s a tough thing to do when it comes to personal development, because really it’s like, you know, we talk about the power offer. We talk about the ads and all I’m doing is telling people how I live.

Like all that stuff is true. Like that’s exactly how I live. Even the falling asleep at 9:37 PM thing, never 36, never 38. I can’t explain that one. I have no idea. I just retell, I get tired and that’s it, but it’s tough to convince yourself that what you have to say and what your experience is, is worth many thousands of dollars to anybody else.

So I had to get my energy right on the 5k offer, which it is all day. Like that’s no problem when it comes to the groups. What I did recently was start to think of myself a little bit differently because I recognize the results that my students were getting.

And it was when I understood that this guy, like, you know, that people were doing it like they were actually doing more in 12 weeks than they’d done in the last year. I had people that were at a space where their finances in their company were just a disaster. And within 90 days they ended up having offers for 8.4 million to sell.

Now, granted that wasn’t a brand new business, but it was one where it was a disaster and there was no way in hell it was going to be worth anything because auditors would have come in and gone, like this sucks. Like, what are we supposed to look at here? The other guy that I mentioned earlier that had been stuck since 2014, doubling his sales in 90 days.

So then I start thinking about this from a different perspective and my energy and my confidence goes up. And so now when I’ve got somebody that wants to come into the game for me, with me for a year, like on a one-on-one game, I got no problem asking $26,000 because I know what I can do. I know that the value of them spending 26 grand with me over the course of a year, It’s stupid.

If they’re not making at least a quarter million off of that investment, it’s just stupid.

Joel Erway: [00:38:50]

Yep. Yeah. Confidence is everything, and knowing, um, you don’t build confidence until you get results for people, right. That confidence let me retract that statement. Your confidence grows when you start getting results for people and you have to be confident in yourself in order to command those premium prices, because people will, they will see through your tonality.

Matching the energy is what just something that you talked about, like people will see through your tonality and they have to get excited about the offer and if they don’t see that you’re excited about the offer or whatever it is that you’re talking about, they can’t generate that excitement on their own or if they do, because they got excited about your power offer, but then they talk to you and you’re just kind of dull and monotone, like you’re going to put that fire out.

So it’s all about maintaining that fire and maintaining that spark. Absolutely love it, man.

Brent Kocal: [00:39:45]

The way I categorize that and what I tell people I do is it’s like, listen, don’t come to me if you need me to build a fire for you, that’s not my jam. Find somebody else that’s going to help you build the fire. When you’ve already built a fire, regardless of how big that is, because I’ve got some clients that are doing like $200,000 a year in gross revenue, right.

And then I’ve got some people that are doing $20 million a year in gross revenue, just like their company is doing that. And I tell them like, listen, you build a fire, you come to me and I’m going to pour gasoline on that bitch. And we are going to make it so huge and so hot that it consumes everything in front of it.

And that’s like, there’s passion and conviction about that because I get it juiced off of what they’re doing. Like it’s like, I listened, like I told you that voice in my head that said, you must talk, you must talk. You must talk to the point where sometimes he was like shouting at me when I was meditating. And it was just like jarring, like your eyes open and they’re normally closed in meditation.

Your breathing gets off and it was jarring. It was like, I was getting shaken by this calling and said, you’ve got to talk and I resisted it forever. But then once I submitted to listening to that voice and I found exactly what it is that I need to be talking about. It’s like everything got into alignment and everything started working.

And so there’s a different energy. There’s a different passion that I approach my marketing with. There’s a different passion that I approach sales with. There’s a different passion that I approach fulfillment with. Now it’s very similar. Like all this stuff, it’s like, those are prerequisites. You’ve got to have that, but you also need to understand the process for doing it, which for me is, you know, one of the reasons why I’m so thankful that I got recommended to do your course, that’d still be struggling.

Like you can have all the passion in the world, but if you don’t have the right framework for delivery, then it’s not going to work. It’s simply not going to work. And that’s exactly what I’ve found through you as the formula that just fucking works.

Joel Erway: [00:41:51]

Yeah. I mean, it’s so much fun to see all the different offers and all the different marketplaces that are growing and that are taking action with this stuff, because it gets me jazzed.

It gets me ignited to continue to push this message out there because the biggest misconception out there is people focus on marketing over sales and it’s like, You want to focus on marketing, you wanna focus on lead generation, and all these lead magnets and free eBooks, like you’re in for a long haul.

Like, will it work? Maybe. But you know, when you’re just starting out or you’re really trying to test this new offer. Like they all have their time and place. They all have their place in the world of building a business. But, until you’re doing 30 to $50,000 per month, man, you just need to start making offers like you need to make as many offers to as many people as possible and dialing your sales process and dial in what people are actually buying.

Get that yes or no. And that is what your focus needs to be. So super excited to see you just continue to take off and taking massive action. I see a lot of optimized optimization for you just moving forward and a lot of opportunities, so excited that you were able to jump on and share this with our listeners.

Brent Kocal: [00:43:15]

Yeah, me too, man. This was awesome.

Joel Erway: [00:43:17]

So where can people find you? Where can people, you know, if they’re interested in personal development and they’re buying into your message right now, like where can people check out your stuff?

Brent Kocal: [00:43:26]

Oh, so many places, Joel. I’m so glad you asked. So the first place that you can find me is just go check out ruthlessresults.com

If the videos on that resonate with you, then follow the process, right? Opt in, fill out your application, and if you qualify, then we’ll get on the phone and have us a one-on-one conversation. But only if that message resonates. You can find me on Instagram @brent.kocal that’s my primary social media platform that I deal with.

And then my own podcast, which is called Everyday Discipline. It comes out three times a week, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. And then I do it live on Instagram the day before when I record it. So that’s where you can find me.

Joel Erway: [00:44:03]

Awesome. We’ll make sure to include those links in the show notes below. Brent, it’s an honor, man. Thank you so much for sharing your story. If you’re listening right now, go check him out. Let him know you heard him on sold with webinars. Give him some love and just let him know that you appreciate his information, his knowledge that he shared here on the podcast, because he revealed everything.

Revealed a lot of stuff about sales process and sales mentality, he revealed his funnel. So, give him some love, just thank him for being on the show and we’ll see you on the next one. Take care.

Brent Kocal: [00:44:35]

Thanks Joel.

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