How To Sell A Dying Market with Lukas Resheske | #042
How can you create a new entry point for a market that captures a whole new audience so you can now change the outcome of what’s been happening? That was the question Lukas Resheske was faced with when he was tasked to sell a dying market. Lukas is a professional copywriter, copywriting mentor, author, and digital and sales funnel expert. He discusses a project of his where he generated over a million dollars from a webinar in a dying niche. Lukas shares that your ability to teach and to show that you know what you’re talking about, helps in a sophisticated marketplace. He shares the importance of learning how to analyze your market, learning how to analyze your offers, and discovering how to pivot and how to create new angles for markets that may dictate if your offer is dying or not. Learn how to drastically improve your conversions as Lukas shares how to be a better marketer and advertiser and make your program sell like hotcakes.
You are in for a treat. I hopped off my interview with the amazingly talented Lukas Resheske who has been writing webinars for his own clients. He is a very talented copywriter and he’s been hired by some of the biggest named internet marketers in the business. I got a little geeky on this episode as I tend to do when I get to speak with other brilliant marketers like Lukas, but this is worth your time investment to dial in and listen to this episode. What was fascinating about this was Lukas and I had talked about a project of his where he generated over a million dollars from a webinar in a dying niche.
What we chatted about was really important in learning how to analyze your market, learning how to analyze your offers, and discovering how to pivot and how to create new angles for markets that may dictate if your offer is dying or not. Lukas was able to revive and offer a very powerful offer by taking a unique angle. That’s what we talked about on this episode. If you pay attention to the psychology of what he’s doing, this is going to drastically improve your conversions. It’s drastically going to make you a better marketer, make you a better advertiser, and make your course or your program sell like hotcakes. Let’s jump into our episode.
How To Sell A Dying Market with Lukas Resheske
I want to welcome our guest for our episode, Lukas Resheske. The two of us have been virtually connected for awhile now. When I say virtually connected, it’s been mostly through Messenger. I’ve hired some of his copywriters. He’s a copywriter extraordinaire. He trains other copywriters and aspiring copywriters how to build this skill, build this art. The two of us had this connection for awhile now and I brought him on because he is going to be talking about something very fascinating called this cross-industry idea of how he took a stagnated product idea and generated an extra $1.3 million in three months. Lukas, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Joel. I appreciate it. I’m excited to be on the show. I love the content here. I love the people on this show and I hope I can live up to the standard of all the cool stuff that people have taught here.
We’re going to have a lot of fun. What I want to avoid, and this is me personally as the host, is having two copywriters go back and forth. I know that we could probably go real deep and real technical. We’re probably going to go that route, but it’s going to be very high level. We’re going to help translate this for anyone in the audience wanting to turn this into actionable advice. We have advanced marketers who are on here and we also have people who are probably dipping their toe in the water and exploring webinars to see if it’s a right fit for them. Introduce yourself, brag about yourself, tell everyone who are you, what do you do, where do you come from and show them how big you are.
I’m bad at bragging about myself, but I’ve been a copywriter in less-pure form for about six years. I’ve been a strict copywriter for about four years. I had that period where I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do entrepreneurially and then I committed to copywriting. I originally found it because I accidentally fell into this whole entrepreneur online business world. In my own head, I was supposed to be a career military. My family was military. My mom was military; my dad was military. My mom retired as a lieutenant colonel.
I thought I was going to be in the military for twenty years. I was going do that. I went to school. I had an ROTC scholarship. I got commissioned as an officer, but halfway through college, a couple of things happened. I met my wife. I very quickly realized that I didn’t want to spend half my life deployed away from her. Instead of going into the active duty, I chose to go in the National Guard and that was a big life choice. Every career decision that I had made up until that point as a nineteen, twenty-year-old person was geared towards being in the military my whole life and now I have to do something else.
I started looking around. I found a business. I found Craig Valentine’s Early to Rise and Mark Ford, luckily. I found a couple of other people. My original mentor around copywriting was Mike Dillard. I worked for his company, The Elevation Group when I was first getting out at school. The Elevation Group was another example of an automated webinar that crushed for a long time. He did $20 million the first year with The Elevation Group. That was my exposure to him. I went to an event called the Underground Online Marketing Seminar, Yanik Silver’s event on a whim. I was brand new to this. I’m like, “If I want to learn about this world, I have to go and be around the people who do it.” I put it on the credit card and I came there. I listened to Mike Dillard’s business partner at the time speak, and I’m like, “That was cool. I love the keynote. I love where he was going.
Who is this?
Robert Hirsch. He was the CEO of that company for awhile and they’ve been partners for a couple of other things. He talked at the event. I thought that was cool. In my ignorance, I went out back to try and say hi to him, to introduce myself to a keynote speaker because I didn’t know that that was the thing that you’re not supposed to do. I stopped him in the hall and he was talking to somebody else. I was feeling awkward standing next to him. He either said his phone number or he was giving away his phone number to this person or something and I heard it had 720 area code, which was Colorado, which was where I lived and that’s my in. I started talking to him. Twenty minutes later, we were in the bar. 45 minutes later, I had a job out of college. It was pretty cool. I went down there. I worked for The Elevation Group. I got to see that cool operation and Mike was always huge on learning copywriting as like your primary skills. That’s what sparked it for me and then it went from there.
You’ve done multiple eight figures end results for some of your clients for the past six years. You’re a seven-figure copywriter generating seven figures in fees with your clients. Some of your clients are Tai Lopez, Josh Turner, Oren Klaff, Ryan Levesque and 150 others. It was very impressive. Let’s go tactical. You worked on a webinar that generated $1.3 million in three months, and the reason why you were able to get it to spark up was because of this idea of cross-industry. Set the stage for how this client approached you. What was the problem they were having? Let’s build the stage for how we ultimately got to this super successful project?
The guy was looking to hire out the copywriting. He had always written it himself. He grew his company to multiple millions in yearly revenue on his own, but he was starting to phase himself out of the copy. He brought me in to help with that aspect. He had seen that I worked with Ryan and so he was like, “Let’s do this.” He also had an issue where the industry, as a whole, that he was in was suffering a little bit of a decline in attention and interest. He was in the LinkedIn marketplace. People weren’t talking about LinkedIn. That was stagnating things and, on top of that, he had some competition that was pretty sophisticated.
In my world as a copywriter, I see declining attention in highly sophisticated marketing is what I would call stage three or stage four sophistication, which in my head means I have to do something different. I have to find something that the marketplace will respond to that gets them interested in the program. That led me on the idea of figuring out this big idea and borrowing from Jay Abraham. I like to cite my sources. I don’t like to make things up and pretend that I invented it. All of Jay’s success is predicated on two things, JV-ing and being able to take a good idea from one industry and move it to another and get insane results. That’s it.
He has an incredible body of work, but when you boil it down, it’s those two things. His ability to partner and his ability to get different ideas for different industries. I was thinking that and I’m like, “I’ll be on the lookout for an idea that I can grab from another industry,” and it fell into my lap when I was thinking about this project because I read a lot. I try to stay aware and I was reminded of this concept called the Gartner Hype Cycle. The Gartner Hype Cycle is well-known in Silicon Valley because it’s a curve that a guy measured on the media hype cycle and the amount of trend used on words and things like that around technology based on its inception and its actual point of usefulness or the network effect. It goes like that.
We mapped LinkedIn on Google Trends and we noticed that it was on the decline of the Gartner Hype Cycle. There’s our big idea. I wrote all the materials for that. I made the webinar for that and the whole premise was that the hype cycle is attention. It has nothing to do with the exponential nature of the technology. The value of the technology was still there and, as a matter of fact, the value of the technology, because it’s a communication app on LinkedIn, is going up. The product itself was on an up curve as far as effectiveness, but it was losing attention. It was the perfect time to buy in.
Nobody has ever mentioned the Gartner Hype Cycle on either of my two podcasts. I want to try and visually paint this for people.
You’ve got your X axis and your Y axis. The star is the start of the technology when it first comes into being. It undergoes a ‘nobody knows about it’ type deal and then it pops in attention. It dips and then it levels out. The star is the start.
For everyone, here’s what happens. Something gets adopted, it goes on a massive spike really quickly, like, “Something new,” a huge spike and then it goes to technology triggers, that’s introduction or visibility is at zero and very, very quickly it goes to peak, and a huge spike called peak of inflated expectations. Then it goes into a big drop, which is trough of disillusionment. It slowly comes back up and levels off into a plateau of wherever it’s going to end up being. Big spike, big drop, eventually rising, and leveling off. At what point are you entering this project of your client?
About halfway on the down slope.
You were literally able to go to Google Trends and see, “We’re on our way down, but we’re going to go back up,” so you’re able to capture that in and ride that wave back up.
The assumption being that the technology survives. Then when you dig into the research a little bit more on that particular project, you see a couple of things. Number one, it just got acquired by Microsoft, which is massive. The biggest work company for computing brings in the biggest network for professionals. I’m like, “They’re not stupid.” We like to make fun of big brands, like car commercials, but the fact is they’re not stupid. They know there’s value. They know that there’s something there. That was what we ran with. That was the story that we told on why it was beneficial to have a system on LinkedIn to generate leads and sales especially for professionals and service providers and things like that.
I was pretty sure that LinkedIn wasn’t going to die. I didn’t think it was going to go the way of Myspace. It was always going to be a resume site, a connection site. I was fairly confident in the product. We weren’t selling LinkedIn, we’re selling entrepreneurs going on and getting leads from LinkedIn. I knew from his testimonials and his stuff that it was working. If you did it, it worked. That was the interesting thing for me, but I was looking for that hook. I was looking for that interesting concept to talk about and that’s what I did.
I was playing on Google Trends and I searched for the Periscope app because for whatever reason, that’s what came to mind. It works. Although Periscope is dying in my opinion, it’s dying because of competing technology that I don’t know if they can overcome. You have identified the opportunity for LinkedIn. You said Jay Abraham focuses on partnerships and ideas. Let’s assume now at this point, he signed you on, you’ve taken on the project. What is going through your mind as you start to brainstorm to revive this product?
That was the brainstorm. A big part of it was figuring out the big idea and making that click because when you get a good, a big idea as a copywriter, you feel it.
What was the big idea?
It was the fact that the hype cycle was making LinkedIn less popular, but in reality, it was more effective than it ever was. I forget the exact language of the copy because it was a couple of years ago. The general gist of the whole package was you’re not paying enough attention. You’re missing out. You’re missing this opportunity, that kind of language. This FOMO style language and then justifying it through the data and saying, “LinkedIn is not going anywhere.” It might not be popular, it might not be in Vogue, it might not be the thing that everybody’s talking about, but it’s working. If you’re a professional, then you care about what’s working and not what’s popular. That tone flowed through the entire funnel basically.
The big idea is you care about what’s working and not what’s popular. As business owners, you shouldn’t care about what’s popular. You should be caring about what’s working.
His marketplace was not obviously all male or anything like that, but his target market was slightly older men in professions. I would say that maybe at least 50% of his target market was in that bracket, your mortgage people, your agencies, your insurance, all of that. You have to be in the professional services or in the profession or in corporate to be interested in LinkedIn in the first place. That’s who you attract in and so that’s who you’re talking to. Those guys have an idea of, “I’m pragmatic. I care about results. I don’t like the shiny object syndrome. Maybe I have it in the back of my head, but what I want is the results and that’s who I view myself at.” We took that tone and we gave them data to support it and then we went off with the product.
You’ve done your research. You’re like, “I’m going to head towards this theme.” You’ve picked up a theme, which is you don’t care about what’s popular. You shouldn’t care about the hype. “Maybe LinkedIn, the buzz is dying, but here’s proof that it’s actually working.” Where is this automated webinar fitting into the grand scheme of the marketing campaign?
This guy did have a strong brand. He had good testimonials. He wasn’t starting from scratch. The big idea was also the dangerous concept that we’re trying to fight against, which is lack of interest. What we realized throughout that launch was that we needed to hook people in as many ways as possible. What we utilized was a well-written report on a frontend. We used a webinar that I wrote that was done live the first time to his list to generate ideas and results and validate, but then that was kicked over to automated. They took the live version. They put it on automated as an on-demand replay type thing. That gave them multiple modalities to check out this main idea.
We’d spent some time on the report to make sure that our findings are justified and all this stuff and we wanted to present it as professional. We cut that into a couple of different videos. We allowed them to see a few videos that would hammer home the points that laid out the webinar in a three-video format, similar to Jeff Walker style launch. All we wanted them to do was accept that big idea because if that clicked in their head like, “I’m going to use a platform that’s effective and not one that’s shiny,” then we were able to sell them on the system because most of them didn’t have a system to use the product. All those different modalities came into play. Warm traffic, cold traffic, it was converting well, better on warm.
Then they also did several live webinars, which were basic. They weren’t the same as the webinar that I wrote in the first one, but they were reiterating the same points. They were showing some of the cools stuff that they had on offer because it was a combo of some services, some of the product and they had a software that they were using as well. It’s this all-inclusive package that was applicable for the target market, but the focus for the copy and the launch was hit them on everything they can. If they’re not going to spend an hour on the webinar, try to get that seed planted in that ten-minute report or the twenty-minute report or maybe the video captures their attention and because of his brand and because of this focus on getting them into the hook, the frontend converted well on cold and warm traffic. The other thing that made that launch a true blockbuster, and this is important for more sophisticated marketplaces, is they leveraged the heck out of the 80/20 principle, which is the Pareto principle. 80% of your results come from 20% of your efforts, but usually, there’s 20% of your audience that is willing to pay more at every scale of 80/20.
If you take all the people who are interested in this product, you have an 80/20. 20% or so will buy. Of that 20%, there’s maybe 20% and 80% of that 20% are just going to buy the main product. The other 20% of all the buyers will buy something else. They had an agency with backend services that were high-ticket. They had a live event and they were able to roll all of those things up and that’s one thing that I don’t notice a lot of people doing with webinars in particular is having an upsell pathway. VSLs and sales letter and sales funnels have done that forever. Having an upsell pathway is the key than making it in direct response.
You talked about this on your podcast. Everybody’s got this pie in the sky idea of a $997 product and you run it and it’s harder. If you have a sophisticated marketplace, it’s hard to break even on that thing when you’re paying a team, when you’re buying a funnel, and all this stuff. Having those 80/20 offerings, especially in a professional context, how many people do you need to pay for a $20,000 agency package before you double your profits? Not many. How many people do you need to pay for a $2,000-ticket to a live event or a $5,000-ticket to a live event before you double your profits again? It’s not a lot. If you’re giving a result that transformed someone, especially in a business context, you have to do that. At the end of the three months between the mastermind sales, agency sales, product sales and software sales, that was what gave them their return.
This is a pretty complex funnel. It wasn’t just a single webinar piece. There was a free report and then that’s repurposed into three or four videos for that multi-video. Where did the webinar come in? Was it after the videos? Could they choose their own path?
It was released as a report live webinar that got turned into the automated webinar videos then to live webinars. That’s how the chronological release time, but we made it so that they could come in at any one of those points and I believe the warm lists started with the webinar and then the cold traffic was getting the report and going into the webinar itself. They had follow on. They had salespeople if they needed them to go after the bigger sales. That’s how they did it.
It was a three-month launch.
It wasn’t a three-month launch. The launch itself was between prelaunch and actual timeframe, probably three weeks to three and a half weeks. Then over the next two months is when they were closing agency deals, making the offers on the backend. Over the course of three months was that total revenue.
What was the frontend offer? Was it $997 or $1,997 or something?
It was $997.
A $1,000 frontend and then all the upsells and live events. You said, “You want to hook as many people as possible.” The primary hook was, “You may think that the LinkedIn buzz is dying, but it is super effective for this niche.” In the world of marketing, we all know we have to figure out how to overcome as many shifts and as many beliefs as possible. What were some of those other beliefs that you extracted from your research and ultimately implemented during this campaign throughout the webinar?
It’s twofold. There are common objections and common things that come up with everyone whenever they get over the hump of accepting an idea because then all the stuff comes up. The stuff is the same for everybody, but the words they use and thoughts they have to describe this stuff are different. You’re not so much searching for if, you’re searching for how they’re saying it. I don’t have them memorized off the top of my head, but I have nine different types of buyers that I found from Melanie Saladino. She’s another copywriter. There are nine different buyer types and they correlate with nine different primary objections.
Usually, what I try to do is weave those into the copy. The copy is just a salesperson. You’re trying to weave the answer to their objections into the copy as you go. That’s how I structure my content. That’s how I teach my people to structure their content at a strategic level. In my eyes, the body copy is designed to be intriguing, be educational if it can be, but not at the expense of helping them get over these objections to taking action.
Educational, if it can be. For a sales webinar, it shouldn’t be the primary focus of being educational. It should support your main pieces of ultimately making the sale and letting them know that there is value behind this gated product.
I don’t know if the audience would feel this way because they’re probably pretty focused on direct response and I get it, but a lot of people don’t like that idea. They would prefer to believe that you can educate someone and then out of gratitude, that person will go and purchase the product that you’re selling or the service that you’re selling. Human minds don’t work that way and it’s not our fault. It’s something where when you think you have the answer, you’re super grateful, but you’re not ready to take another action.
You think that you either can go do this one thing that now is consuming your mind and you’re excited about that, and it’s quite a big disservice, at least in my experience. If someone thinks they can do something and then they run off and try and then they hit a wall, that was module two in the course. It was going to help them get over that wall, but they ran off instead and tried to do it. If you care about the results someone gets from your content, you have to prioritize the sale of that person over the frontend reciprocity-driven education.
Providing goodwill. It is a delicate balancing act and I do believe that it is market-specific. Some markets do need a little bit of goodwill, whereas other markets, you can get away with it.
At least in my experience, the goodwill is a proof element. Your ability to teach and your ability to show that you know what you’re talking about, it helps in a sophisticated marketplace. That’s why we went with the high data approach with this one webinar where we wanted to justify what we were saying with data, rather than emotion and hype and, “You’re going to make a million dollars in seven days” crap. We wanted to emotionally get them moving through data and that’s very possible. A lot of people are focused on stories. They’re focused on getting people emotionally involved in the story, but in my experience, I’ve found that if you do data based reasoning and lead them through this argument, the way a lawyer would, that’s almost as effective, if not more effective than an anecdotal story in some cases. If you can check Twitter, nobody’s fact-checking as you go.
They are trusting whoever they’re listening to at that point.
If you’re an ethical marketer and you’re using real numbers, then that’s okay. If you’re making things up, then screw you. If you’re leading them through a logical thing like, “This is the data, this is the chart, this is what this says,” you’re making it very easy to say yes to whatever you prescribe and that’s educational, but it’s also not something that’s going to send them off on their own. They’re just accepting of the idea over time.
It’s almost like you have to pick one. You either are going to go all story-based and hype-based and selling their emotions or you’re going to be the fact finder. There’s a lot of value in being the fact finder because you can’t dispute the evidence. You can always dispute stories and be like, “I don’t know if I believe him.” I don’t even know how to measure the effectiveness between the two, if story selling is better than fact-finding. I know Mike Dillard, he’s all affects. That’s all he does. I did his breakdowns inside the Webinar Vault and his List-Grow Webinar. There’s no hype. There are very few stories. The best analogy that he used was applying the Starbucks analogy. You can go check it out inside the Vault. I’ve watched his The Elevation Group webinars too, and he goes so deep into his facts. Did you help write that webinar?
No, I did not. I was nowhere near that good.
I would have given you a virtual hug if you did it because it’s fantastic. Number one was timing. That came out right at the recession and then number two, he went all the way back to the fall of the Roman Empire and started to relate the two situations. I’m like, “Wow.” You can’t dispute what he’s talking about.
I love documentaries. I love educational TV programming and all that stuff. They’ve been convincing and persuading people for a long time and they don’t have to sit and use the reality show type, rags to riches thing to do it. I don’t know if you do the Kolbe thing or if you know about Kolbe tests, but I’m in 9434. I’m a fact-finder. That’s what I do. I tend to be more biased towards the data focused stuff with a healthy respect for stories because it helps contextualize everything. You can’t just throw up a study at someone and hope they’d understand it.
Talented copywriters get paid so much money because they know how to do that balance. They know like, “I can go find millions of facts,” and that’ll help, but you also don’t want to bury them in facts because they’re going be like, “I feel like I can’t do this.” Anything with stories and it’s this delicate balancing act.
You don’t know when to decide to use a story versus data. For me, that’s huge on target market. Like for example, Mike Dillard was marketing to, for lack of a better term, and this is not his entire market demographic but for The Elevation Group, grumpy old men. It was a financial newsletter. They’ve got the thing, the GOM or whatever. Bob Bly invented that. He knew that those guys loved the History Channel. They love the Discovery Channel. They like those ideas, but they needed to see the context because for them, the subconscious argument of history repeats itself, excess is bad. All this stuff is playing back there, and Mike masterfully weaves that into his story around the crash and the recession at an opportune time.
He nailed it. You can feel that same thing in the List-Grow Webinar when you look at it too. You can feel that sense of all of the stuff he’s saying makes sense to you in the back of your head because not only is he using the data to make his point, but you’re virtually nodding as you go through the thing. You’re accepting of it because he’s also weaving in that subconscious thing that you already believe. If you’re the right candidate for the product, you’re going to believe the things that he’s confirming for you.
The thing that Mike did so well on the List-Grow Webinar was he hit the largest audience possible. That takes such practice, being able to speak without excluding. It’s a fantastic skill that he has because it’s a biz op, but it’s not positioned as a biz op. It’s positioned as how to grow your audience and how to monetize your audience. I listened to it about ten times and I bought his product. I’m definitely not a newbie and he wrote it so a newbie could get it, but he also allowed more sophisticated individuals to relate to it and be like, “I need this too.” That is a fantastic skill and very, very difficult to master, which is why I use that as my first Webinar Vault breakdown. I wanted to go back to your LinkedIn program. I’ve been fascinated with at what point we enter the mind of your prospect? Let me give you an example and then I’m going to ask you how you approach this. We are running a webinar to try and sell my webinar training program and it was bombing. I admit it to everybody, we lost money. We made sales, but we were not profitable at all.
I realized that it came down to what am I selling? Am I selling a strategy? Am I selling a methodology or am I selling the tool? In reality, the way that I was positioning it, which it was I was trying to sell the tool of a webinar and it was really difficult. The sales approach of that was really difficult and we changed it and we’ve now gone. That’s how we created the Webinar Vault because we changed it from methodology and strategy to selling a tool and we can be way more direct with selling a tool. With LinkedIn, I feel like there could be that tool aspect. People think LinkedIn is a tool. When you started marketing to cold audience, so there’s marketing that report or marketing the webinar, what was the language that you were using to get them in? Were you leading with LinkedIn or were you taking a step back saying like, “If you want to grow your business, I’m going to show you something?” Were you leading with LinkedIn as that?
That’s a great question because it reminds me of what we were doing. We essentially did a secret lead. I added together the combined value of whatever LinkedIn and Microsoft was worth. I don’t know what the cost or what the number was but it’s like $6 billion, something that you don’t even know about or that you’ve never heard of or something like that. That was the tone of the frontend for cold traffic. The reason we did that was deliberate. It was specifically because of the decline in attention for LinkedIn. We didn’t want that word to trigger the, “Not for me,” mentality. The whole funnel was just getting them to click and look at the idea. Once they got the idea, it made sense for everybody.
When was the idea of LinkedIn revealed? Was that in the report?
Yeah, one guy is doing a really good secret lead for local marketing agencies. He is talking about this service that he does before offering a website that converts at 80%. He goes and leads on. For awhile, all his ads are like that. His pre-webinar emails are like that and he only reveals on the webinar and it kills. People are pissed because he won’t reveal the thing sooner, but it kills and it gets a lot of attention. I forgot his name though.
Is it Mike Schmidt and AJ Rivera?
They were on the podcast. I know them. They’re awesome friends of mine. They were on the podcast. They were our first Sold With Webinars case study. They made their first $250, 000 from listening to this podcast.
Did they implement that because of something they heard here?
I don’t know specifically, but they eventually got there. They’re running weekly live webinars.
I bring that up because secret leads are interesting. They did it fantastically. I’ve got this whole concept called The Big 4 and it’s your target market, their primal stuff, their market awareness and their market sophistication. Awareness and sophistication have five levels and stages. One through five on awareness, stage one through five on sophistication. When you reach a certain point of awareness and sophistication, you can no longer lead with the thing that you feel like you want to. Your webinar course is an example. Mike Schmidt is another example, Dillard is another example. My staff is another example. That’s not a bad thing. It just means that you’re marketing to a big enough audience where you have to use something other than ‘the thing’ to grab their attention. That’s where copywriters can help.
To expand your audience, that what it is.
Each awareness level has ten times more people in it than the previous one. Your level one awareness is just your audience, your people who are aware of you. Some people have like Tai Lopez, millions of people, other people, a thousand or less. As soon as you get up to level four, level five where someone’s desire aware, they may have an inkling for getting a list-grow product, maybe they want to grow a business, maybe they want to do a webinar, but they don’t know what a webinar is. There’s tens of millions of people in that audience. They’re not going to respond to anything direct. They’re not going to respond to a tool. If the marketplace is sophisticated, which it is. There are lots of webinar experts, there are lots of options for different types of webinars, it’s something where understanding the mentality of the marketplace comes into play and helps.
The campaign that we ran before, which is a webinar course when we were leading with the tool, we are leading with the webinar. In the ad, it was like, “I’m going to show you how to build million dollar webinars for yourself.” We were leading with a tool, the market was already sophisticated and they already had this idea. We had so many things going against us. We had a lot of people who even though they enjoyed the presentation, they’re like, “It’s still too difficult for me.” I was giving them my software slides, which was helping them build it. We were making sales which meant like our market was on point but it was the method of where we are selling.
We are going to be reselling that on a webinar, but we’re taking a different approach where we’re going to be having a secret lead to get the biggest audience so our cost per lead had to go down. That was one of the things that killed us was our cost per lead is so high because we were leading with the tool. It was attracting some people but mostly repelling. They weren’t interested because they’ve already told themselves that a webinar is not for me. That was going against us. Even if they registered, they didn’t want to sit on a webinar to be sold a webinar product. It was such a valuable lesson to learn to go through it because it makes it so much more valuable when we write webinars for other clients. It’s now more strategic, like, “What am I really talking about?”
I want to go back to the secret lead because this is super valuable. I want you to share this podcast with every single marketing friend because this is going to be worth millions and millions of dollars. This process that we’re going through, Lukas and I are going through, I guarantee you it’s worth so much money to your business if you apply it and you understand what we’re talking about. You understood with Google Trends that they were on a decline of awareness. The Gartner Hype Cycle, it was decline of visibility. You let the secret lead to capture the biggest audience possible and then resell them on LinkedIn being the opportunity, being what they need regardless of hype. “It is the effectiveness and here’s all the data that I’m telling you.” In that report you sell them on LinkedIn, what is then the webinar showing them? If the report’s showing them that LinkedIn is the thing, where are you taking them through on the webinar and ultimately get them to invest?
It was a long webinar. The first part of the webinar was essentially reselling them on the idea of being there. Once they accepted that LinkedIn was a good thing to do, now we had to get them excited about doing it right away. We had to get them excited about using a specific system to do it. From that point, we spent the first few minutes talking about the same stuff we talked about it in the report, but with greater detail, with more anecdotal stories, more examples from clients of his, things like that.
Then we flowed into how this can work for you, what some of the mechanics are and then the last part of the webinar was combined with a pitch focused on showing the nitty-gritty of what it would take to do this on your own, to try and figure it out on your own. I say traditional direct response in a sense, I’m not trying to be evasive. Once we got them on the big idea, we took them through a pretty typical sales argument of, “If you accept this idea and you have these objections, then here’s the answers to all of your objections and here’s a silver platter solution for you at the end.”
Dillard does this fantastically where he makes you accept the thing in the beginning, it answers your objections throughout, and it gives you the silver platter at the end. That’s a term I learned from Yanik Silver, the Silver Platter. When you’re watching something like that and you’re interested in the result, one of the things like with your webinar product for example, sometimes they’ll hit the end and go, “I love this idea, but I don’t have time. I don’t know how, I don’t think I can.” Those kinds of stuff when the stuff comes up. The sales knock those down as we went. Using data, we showed inside the members area. We gave them what they needed to make sure that they could make a solid decision, but also primed the outcome rather than the program as the primary goal.
Nobody cares that they’re buying a course. They don’t. Every time that I’m reviewing somebody’s webinar, it’s like, ” I’d like to invite you to join my super awesome online course.” Stop selling a course. It devalues what you’re selling because it takes away from the end result. You call it online course, they’re like, “You’re giving me a bunch of prerecorded videos.” In their mind, immediately that’s what they think and that’s from value establishment. Stop selling courses and I had preach it so much.
These guys were lucky in the sense that they had some implementation help. They had coaching and Q&As and stuff like that. They had software associated with it that they were building on the backend. They had the full Monty on their offer, but they also position the outcome to leverage the upsells. If someone didn’t want to take a program for $1,000, they could still get the leads from the agency at $20,000. They still could sign a retainer agreement to work with these guys over a long term.
In that particular offer, that makes a lot of sense, but if you apply it to other offers, you can do done for you, you can do done with you, you can do coaching, you can do upsells, all this stuff on almost any offer that can be done on a webinar. It takes a little bit of brainstorming, but you can nail it down. It was a long webinar and I don’t want to try to be evasive on the exact content, but we didn’t do anything super special on the webinar other than answer everything that we possibly could. I don’t know if you’ve done a breakdown of Sam Ovens’ webinar funnel.
It’s been recommended. He hasn’t targeted me. I can’t find it. I haven’t looked hard enough.
I only bring it up because I’ve done a little breakdown for my own purposes and his webinar is long, two and a half, maybe three hours. The second half of it is all Q&A and FAQ and just staying on and answering as many questions that have come up in previous webinars as possible because his is automated. They did the same thing where they stayed on for Q&A at the end. They were very focused on getting everybody’s questions answered. I call this the prime objection and it’s, “Will it work for me?” Once they’ve accepted the idea and they want the outcome, that’s the only thing in their head.
The prime objection, “Will it work for me?” You do need to call it out. You need to call a spade a spade. We do that all the time. We literally will put on the screen the slide. That’s how we transitioned between our three or four pieces of content in the webinars. You’re probably thinking, “I get what you taught but you’re probably thinking X,” and I will put those words right on the slide right on the screen. “You’re probably thinking X. That’s what we’re going to be talking about in the next piece of content.”
You’re raising the objections if it’s not clear in their mind, because that’s the other thing too is your audience may have a form of your objection, but the actual objection is not clear in their mind and if you are able to crystallize that and then bring it to light, they’re like, “That’s what I’m thinking of.” Then you’re able to crush it. You’re entering that conversation that’s in their mind, which is any copywriter who’s studied anybody, that’s one of the most important things you can do is enter that conversation that’s already in their head.
That sounds a lot more complicated than it is. People will make a mountain out of a molehill because when you’re talking to a human and you’re passionate about the thing that you do and how it can help them, if you pretend to be sitting across from your person that you’re trying to sell, you’re not going to have trouble reading their facial expressions when they’re hesitant on something that you say. It’s not going to be a thing. You know that when an objection is going to happen, when you’re saying something, you can probably think in the back of your head, “This is what the person might say in response.” “I’m going to help you grow your online business to $100,000 within 45 days.” Then the person goes, “I’ve heard that before.”
If I immediately say, “And guess what, you’ve heard people say that before, but the reason why this is different is because,” and then the person goes, “Wait a minute.” You say, “It’s different because I use Facebook Ads and they are super effective in targeting your people.” They’re like, “Everybody uses Facebook Ads,” and you’re like, “I don’t use Facebook Ads like everybody. I have a very specific way of doing it.” They’re like, “What?” I’m like, “You don’t have to spend more than $10 a day to do this.” They’re like, “Huh?” Most people can have that conversation if they’re talking back and forth to themselves or they’re imagining their customer sitting across from them. That’s what I teach my guys and girls which is imagine your person sitting across from you and have that conversation and all of a sudden copy becomes a lot easier. It’s not this like, “I got to put all the objections in and I’ve got to make sure that they’re good and the psychology is fine, but it ends up being a conversation between two people.
You helped somebody revive a product that was dying. Maybe not completely dying, but it was getting really hard. When this client hired you, they hired you to be like, “I want you to write a sales letter for me. I want you to write a webinar for me,” or did they hire you with the specific purpose? He wanted to hire you for strategy?
He did. I like to be really honest and transparent when I do this stuff. When I worked with Ryan Levesque, I worked with him for a long time and coached a lot of the people in that program. I helped but did not write the copy for one of his biggest launches. I helped come up with the big idea in that launch. It was a group effort. It was a collaborative effort, but we’re all on the phone and I spouted this idea out. I mentioned that to Josh, because Josh and Ryan have worked together. They were in programs together, all this stuff, that’s what keyed in on that’s what he wanted because he knew that you need a new angle.
Eugene Schwartz wrote the book Breakthrough Advertising in 1964, 1966 or something like that. It’s widely regarded as probably the best book on copywriting ever written. When he talks about creating a new mechanism for a marketplace, it happens in every single marketplace that gets competitive. You get a new market, you get people making claims, you get the competition making bigger claims and they fight each other until they reached this point of ridiculousness. Then the market doesn’t believe anything anymore, but the person who comes up with a new concept, a new way of saying something, a new way of making them believe the old claim is now head and shoulders above the competition. The competition can’t compete anymore unless they go and steal the mechanism and go up and that’s stage four. It happens, but that’s how you shift. Every sophisticated marketplace shifts that way. Every single one, no matter where you’re at.
What’s happening right now in the world of Internet marketing, there’s this huge war that is happening between funnels and a new competitor that came out, which is Kartra. This is such a valuable lesson right now because when ClickFunnels came out, it was revolutionary as the first release as far as I know, the first funnel building software. This is also a testament to how quickly a software evolves. I can’t stay in ClickFunnels right now. It’s super buggy. I loved it the first couple of years, but Actionetics, it’s a piece of junk. They’ve just built on selling hype and it does basic functionality. It was good. It killed lead pages and it was going after Infusionsoft.
Now, I’m going to be doing a whole other podcast on this. The war that’s brewing because I think it’s going to be a big war because Russell and Filsaime, they’re good buddies. They learn from each other and now they’re going to be going head-to-head. I’m not going to spoil my assumption. I do predict that one will win and it’s going to be based on something other than features and functionalities of the actual tool. They keep going back and forth, back and forth, and I’ve heard amazing things about Kartra. I’ll be checking it out, but this is fascinating.
You nailed it because that is a market becoming more sophisticated. In this case, Kartra is a new player and they’re entering the market at a certain level of sophistication. They knew they had to come in and compete with ClickFunnels and with Leadpages and Unbounce and those guys. I was talking with my students about this because Kartra is fascinating and how they launched it. They came in hyper direct. People are aware of Frank, they’re aware of Mike, they’re aware of Andy. They came in very direct at level one awareness. They hyped up Kartra and in a Beta program. People were even hearing about the name from the Beta product people. Then they entered the market at a sophistication level three with a new mechanism and the new mechanism was all in one. ClickFunnels is close. It does the page building. You can buy the domain, you can hook up Actionetics and you can hook up the affiliate program, but it’s not all the way there.
Shopping cart sucks. Their membership software sucks. All the additional features they sell you suck. The funnel building part is fine, the page builder is fine but everything else is like garbage.
It’s a sum in one product versus an all-in one product. Kartra came in, new mechanism, and this is it. All you got to do is buy Kartra and now you have an online business.
How can you create a new entry point for this market that captures a whole new audience, so we can now change the outcome of what’s been happening? We’re going head and shoulders against all the other LinkedIn programs. LinkedIn is the best tool. When you can lead with a tool, that can only last for so long just like what we’re doing with the webinar. We are leading the webinar and it failed miserably. We’ll be entering from a new standpoint, probably a secret lead. What we’re doing is we are selling the tool directly versus going straight to the sales page because it’s hyper aware. They don’t need to be sold on webinars. We’re selling just the software, which is, help me build a webinar as fast as humanly possible.
You did $1.3 million in three months with this automated webinar using the cross-industry approach. What you meant by that was essentially the Gartner Hype Cycle, which you’re getting super analytical. That is awesome that you used Google Trends to literally identify where they were on this Gartner Hype Cycle, so you understood, “Mr. Client, you know based on your sales that it’s profitability is down because people probably are sick of hearing about LinkedIn. It’s validated. Let me look at this trend.”
You knew that you had to come up with a new, big idea and not lead with LinkedIn as the solution, but lead with something else that got their interest and remind the audience that, “You know about LinkedIn and ignore the hype. ” It is still by far the most productive way to grow your business. You lead that with a quick download to capture that audience. That’s the big thing too is gaining that audience. If they’re already sophisticated, it’s going to be really expensive to gain that audience. You’ll have to take a step back and hit a new approach to gain that market share. You created that new big idea, you focused on conquering their objections. You didn’t teach much.
We taught but we didn’t let the teaching get in the way of the program. That would be the best way I would explain it.
Did you show them any tactics in the webinar? Were you saying, “Here’s how you do this?” Did you show them a messaging strategy?
We did. Dan Henry might’ve talked about this. I don’t know if he explained it, but he has this concept called Teach Step Two. We did something like that before I’d ever heard about that where if you teach them either how to find connections or how to write the message or how to follow up or any of that stuff, then you go and sell the system. “Here’s exactly what to say, here’s how to automate it,” all this stuff. It becomes a pretty compelling offer because you either see that you can do this on your own and it takes a lot of time or you can purchase the program and get it all on a silver platter. Or you can have us do it for you for $20,000.
You did teach, but you taught a piece in the middle. You didn’t give them the starting point so they could go out on their own.
We didn’t make it seem simpler than it was. That’s a big thing.
You did make it seem simpler than it was?
We did not make it seem simpler than it was. When we were teaching, we’re like, “There are all these steps to it.” There’s the hard way and then there’s the easy way and the easy way buying the program and the software to help it. That was the tone that we took and that was pretty effective for anybody who had already committed the outcome. That’s why the webinar was so long because we wanted them to commit to the outcome and understand where they are at first and then once they’re committed, they can move on to investing to make it go a ton faster.
I’m always fascinated with how some people create offers on webinars because I’ve seen a lot of webinars that do the perfect webinar style fast action bonuses, which I get it and it can help. Did you do any of that? Did you overload it with bonuses? Did you do fast action bonuses? I’ve seen both sides where it works well and I’ve seen guys like Dillard and John Nemo. He is in the LinkedIn space too. He does fast-action bonuses but he’s not overloading it.
We had a couple bonuses but no fast actions and the bonuses themselves were high value, like one-on-one with our sales coach, like that kind of value. One of the final objections that was going to be hard to get over no matter what was, “How does this work for me?”or like, “I would like a step-by-step or I’d like a specific plan for my industry or my area because I’m unique. By offering the bonus of a call with the sales manager or a call with the marketing guy, that assuage that. It’s like, “If you buy this program, you’re going to get help.”
I think that was a big part of it because it wasn’t necessarily a coaching program like, “Step-by-step we’re going to lead you through this workshop.” It was content, but adding that added the value, added the spark and made it convert pretty well. Also, it was essentially a sales opportunity. It was a bonus to get people to buy the product, but every time someone got on the phone with the marketing or sales manager, it would be a value question like, “Do you want us to do this for you?” They leveraged a lot of that. I don’t want to hide the fact that it was a complicated funnel and it wasn’t just like we found the big idea and then that’s all it took.
I would have turned that into an automated webinar funnel immediately. The lead magnet and then an automated webinar and I would pump in that and maybe you did for three months, I’m not sure. I’ve seen so many people do it successfully. I’ve never been a fan of the three-part video series. I’m simplistic. That’s just me, but I totally get why other people go and they try and maximize every lead. It takes a lot more resources to plan it out and build it out properly. The big thing too that opened up the flood gates to get this flood of sales is you helped with the big idea. You developed a new secret lead, a new entry point into something that already existed. That’s the secret. The secret lead was the secret.
To capture the attention and to introduce the new mechanism that we were talking about. This hidden network, but that was one of the fun things. One of the things that I’ve read about that I like about Eugene Schwartz is that he was a fantastic copywriter, but he was also very humble in the sense that he said, “Big ideas are not creative,” which is like a slap in the face to every madman ever. They’re found, they’re discovered. That makes them easier to get, or at least it’s easier to look for them in the first place and not be afraid to start because I found the Gartner Hype Cycle. I did not create it. I didn’t make my own chart. I sought outside of my sphere, found something that looked like it would work, tried it, and it worked. That’s what people underestimate, just how valuable it is to go across industries, to pool cool ideas, to look at something from a new angle and then go from there.
Where can people connect with you?
You can connect with me through Facebook. I’m pretty easy to find. If you Google my name, you can find my content and maybe a pirated course or something. People steal my stuff. My website is LukasResheske.com. I don’t have any lead magnets. I don’t have any stuff for you. If you want a deep dive into this stuff I was talking about like The Big 4 or like any of that, I put my entire first copywriting mentorship program, the first iteration of that onto my website for free. You can just go get it. It’s more than a dozen hours of content. I explained The Big 4 and all that stuff. Feel free to dive in and do that, connect with me on Facebook. I don’t have a maxed friends list yet, but I’m never going to do one of those. I’m purging everybody. Comment with a gift type posts, message me anyway. Other than that, I’d be happy to connect with anyone in your audience. This was super fun. This is probably the most fun podcasts that I’ve done in a long time. I appreciate that.
Go connect with Lukas. He’s a super smart individual, if we didn’t prove that already on this episode. Let them know that you heard him on the Sold With Webinars podcast and go share this with your audience. Give us a rating on iTunes and refer to this episode because I know any marketer listening to this, they’re going to be able to extract money out of this goldmine. Lukas, I appreciate you man. It was a blast. It was a pleasure. For everyone else, we’ll see you on the next episode. Thanks for listening.