Things To Consider When Hiring A Sales Staff with Mike Mark | #48
It’s important to realize that once we start to scale a type of lead gen, hiring a sales staff is one of the most important things to consider. We use high ticket webinars to market and attract high ticket leads for our business whether that is for service-based businesses or high end offers for coaching or consulting. That’s what we use the webinars for, but what we want to figure out is how do we convert them when we get them on the phone? What are the different skill sets, tactics, and strategies to close high ticket deals? Let’s face it, we don’t have time to spend on the phone day in and day out, working with all of those leads. At a certain point, you need to get off the phone so you can focus on fulfillment, on operations, and on perfecting your craft. That’s when you need to bring on a sales staff. Sales expert Mike Mark says there’s a lot to consider when hiring a sales staff. If you’re looking to grow your business through hiring a sales staff, there’s no one better to learn from than Mark who has been doing this for a very long time.
Things To Consider When Hiring A Sales Staff with Mike Mark
I just hopped off the horn with our guest, Mike Mark, who is a sales expert. I want us to bring you an episode that paired up the two pieces of a high ticket webinar. We use high ticket webinars to market and attract high ticket leads for our business whether that is for service-based businesses or high end offers for coaching or consulting. That’s what we use the webinars for but we want to figure out how do we convert them when we get them on the phone. There’s no one better than Mike Mark who has been doing this for a very long time.
Mike shares his story about how he started out in timeshare sales, which is high pressure and a little unethical at times. He shares his entire experience with that, which was very fascinating. It’s important to realize once we start to scale that type of lead gen, how do we get ourselves off the phone? What are the different skill sets, what are the different tactics, what are the different strategies to close high ticket deals? Then, find salespeople to replace ourselves. Let’s face it, we don’t have time to spend on the phone, day in and day out, working with all of those leads. At a certain point, you need to get off the phone so you can focus on fulfillment, on operations and on perfecting your craft. Let’s jump right into this episode with Mike Mark.
I’m super pumped now. We have a completely new angle for you on this episode. My guest is Mike Mark. He has been closing deals and running his own business. He’s a phone closer and phone sales specialist. He has a unique background. We are going to be jamming on all things high ticket webinars, hiring phone closers, and hiring sales teams to lead from your high ticket webinar into the phone sale. Mike, welcome to the show.
I’m happy to be here.
For people who don’t know who Mike Mark is, introduce yourself to my audience.
For most people who come to me, it’s when they’re either struggling with their closing process or they have too many sales calls and they need to find someone who’s reliable, dependable, and can consistently convert them. I’ll help them master that process and then scale their sales team. That’s what my focus is and that’s what I do.
When you say master the process, what do you mean by that? Master the process of what?
You know, Travis Sago who is like a great metaphor of what’s marketing and sales. He uses golf as that metaphor and marketing’s job is to get the ball on the green then the sale’s job is to put it in. When it comes to that, people don’t know what the problem is almost ever. You’ll talk to them and they’re like, “I don’t know, I think the leads aren’t good or I don’t know, I think that I’m not closing and I need help. It could be the messaging. It could be this and that.” Most of the time they’ve been flying by the seat of their pants in the early stages. Even when they’re at $100,000 a month, they don’t track anything.
Their numbers are embarrassing. I’ll be like, “Can you send me this number?” and they’re like, “Sorry, I haven’t been tracking that.” A lot of it is knowing your data. If you don’t know your data, you can’t know what to optimize, you don’t know what’s broken, or what’s not working. Knowing what it takes to get that data, what data is important, what data is irrelevant and knowing how to read it and once you have that, being able to then implement that into meaningful changes.
I’m going to be 100% transparent, I hardly measure my numbers. I have a ballpark, but I don’t have a spreadsheet that’s this step and this step. I don’t recommend that to other people. That’s how I like to roll and that’s just my personality. If you’re building a business and I agree with you, Mike, you got to have numbers. For me, I know what my golden egg is. I shouldn’t say I don’t track my numbers because I have a CFO and he makes sure that we’re on track, but to the sales process, marketing and sales, I don’t track that.
I do know how important it is and I don’t want to sound hypocritical because everyone that I talked to is like, “I know my numbers.” Taylor and Chris over Traffic and Funnels got their numbers dialed in. Anyone who’s growing a big business, they got to have their numbers dialed in. What I’m curious about is this whole process. We’ve got the webinar and that’s leading them to a phone call and it’s leading them to the sale. Give me baseline metrics. If I call you up and I say, “Mike, I’m generating tons of leads or I’ve got plenty of leads from my webinar. Problem number one is either I’m not closing enough and I’m not profitable or I need to bring on a salesperson. What’s the first thing that you’re looking at in that process when you dive in first with a client?
If I want to know if their sales are broken or not, it’s the offer conversion rate. Of the offers that they’re making, what percentage of them are converting? If you’re good, you could be closing sick numbers, I do 40% to 60% on the regular. Sometimes I’ll get weeks where you’re doing 80% especially if it’s you and you’re the face on the webinar, it’s nothing to do 80%. For most people, especially if you don’t consider yourself a salesperson, you’re almost learning this because you have this expertise and selling is something that you had to learn quickly to adapt and grow your business. You should be minimally closing 25% of your offers.
You said 40% to 60% of offers that you make if it’s a secondary closer making the offers.
If you’re a secondary closer, typically, you’ll close a bit lower than whomever’s the face. What happens is when someone gets on a call after they’ve heard your webinar or they’ve read your emails, there’s this bond and they trust you. The best metaphor to understand it is like you have a bank account you trust and you’ve made all these deposits. When they get on the call, you have this big bank account that you have a lot more leverage and you can withdraw, push, pull and do things. When you put a salesperson and they’re going to start from scratch, they got to build that up unless you’re doing some other things which you’re building content and having your salesperson look like a star. Overall, if you’re not a salesperson by trade, say you are health and fitness coach and got into it because you are a personal trainer, you’re good at personal training. You started creating these transformations and you’re like, “Let me try my hand at the high ticket.” All of a sudden you have a high ticket webinar funnel that’s kicking butt and taking names. Then, you should minimally close 25% of the offers that you’re making.
25% is the goal. That’s the baseline goal to start. If you’re not at 25% then you need serious help.
It’s like something’s broken and it’s on the sales call.
That’s where you start with your client and say, “What does that number look like?” Let’s start with the expert. Before they even hire a phone salesperson, they’re like, “I’m running my own sales calls and I’ve got a sub 25% close rate.” What is the most common mistake that the expert is making when they’re trying to sell their own programs after a high ticket webinar?
My background is in Timeshare and that’s what I did before I got into high ticket. I was fired because I couldn’t sell. I was so bad at sales that they fired me after a few months but I treated it like I knew I needed to learn the skill. I knew I wanted the skill and my dad had told me, he is a successful entrepreneur, he’s like, “If you want to build a business, you’ve got to learn how to serve, learn how to sell and learn how to build organizations. If you have that then you have everything.” This was my sales curriculum. When I came back from getting fired, the key question was, what’s the difference between the people who are closing at that 30% and people who can’t close 10%? What is the thing that’s happening there?
The mind-boggling part is for so long I went on this journey of trying to find the magic bullet. There’s this phrase that they’re saying, that no one else is saying and that’s the trick. It’s got to be this phrase. If I just find the phrase, then I’m going to know it. What happened was, you realized it’s not what they say, it’s how they say it. It comes down to that. It’s being able to talk with conviction, create desire in someone and know the process of that. Know the emotional journey of buying intimately and being able to create that. Buying is like telling a story. If you’re a Hollywood screenwriter, you’re writing the same story every single time, just in a different setting, different characters, and different desires but ultimately the structure is the same. When it comes to sales, it’s that same thing. It’s coupling the how you say it with the structure that set someone off too. They’re like, “I get it,” and you’ll watch them change. Then, they’ll close it and have all this confidence. They’re so pumped.
I’m fascinated with what you said because in my background of sales presentations before I jumped into webinars, I had the same desire to find out why are some salespeople closing higher than me? I was on this journey for the magic bullet, literally that exact same phrase. I’m like, “They are saying something specifically to get them to close the deal,” and I was trying to find that same script but we know it’s not true. It’s not what they say, it’s how they say it. We’re going to make sure that we focus on that. You’re a Timeshare salesperson. How has that translated into what you do today? I’ve never been to a Timeshare sales presentation. I don’t want to put myself through it, but maybe I should have.
The resort that I sold, just to give you an idea, had several hundred reps. They did $1 billion a year in turnover using the same sales presentation that they had from the 1980’s. They were doing $1billion a year in turnover and it’s the same presentation. The biggest thing I feel is totally different about high ticket and what I love about it in a lot of ways. I feel making up for this huge karmic debt that I accrued in selling timeshare. I felt I learned the dark arts and then I had to change over to the good side to make up for all the things that I did there. The greatest thing about this though is in high ticket you get to turn people away. In a Timeshare, if they have a pulse and they could give you any amount of money, you’re going to take it. That’s the nature of the beast and you have to go with the culture. At the end of it, it got to this point where I always felt I lost. Like if I made a sale I lost because it was eating up my conscience and it didn’t feel I was acting out of integrity. Ultimately then, I was like, “I’m done.”
I’ll never forget this tour that I had. Once I got how you say it and structure right, people would be hypnotically nodding along and I got their credit cards at the end. If you’re a really good rep, normally the manager comes and takes the credit card and will close the deal for you. I was pulling cards on all my tables normally. This one little black lady from Mississippi, the sweetest lady you’ve ever met. She gives me the card and I came back. I’m like, “The manager is coming over in a bit,” because they do the price drop. We have the resale so it’s this much instead of this much. The lady looks at me and she snaps out of it. She’s like, “You could talk a woman right out of her clothes.”
I got the gift but at that point, I realized that I don’t want to use this for greed. This is not how I want to be remembered and this is not who I want to be. I looked at all the good closers who had stuck around for a while and they had scars on their face. That’s not the face I want to wear. You wear the face you earned in life. At that point, I was like, “I’m done.” Getting into high ticket, once I found it, was like, “You guys are telling me I could legit say no to people? I don’t want to work with somebody who’s a bad fit. Tell me again, can I turn these people?” They’re like, “No, please.” I was like, “I’m in heaven.”
I want to go down this rabbit hole because I want to hear this from you. You found the secret, which is, you found out how to say it, that’s what you said. What you’ve learned from Timeshare sales, which you agree that it can be pushy. In your opinion, what is that style of sales?
It’s super hardcore sharp-angle closing. The worst part about it is it’s not a fair fight. These people didn’t graduate from high school. They can’t do basic math.
The customers or the salespeople?
The customers. They’re not reading the contracts. They don’t know math. They don’t understand finance. You’re talking to people who have no idea of what’s going on, so it’s not a fair fight, they got no clue. You’re bamboozling and hypnotizing them. Then next thing, they give you the credit card and they’re like, “What do I do with this thing for the next ten years?” That’s why to me it wasn’t cool. Whereas in high ticket, there are real conversations with people and most of them I talked to, read a lot. They’re reading Principles by Ray Dalio. No idiot reads Principles by Ray Dalio. You have a basic grasp of finance, you know the business, and you understand things. You have a real conversation on an equal level and they’re curious, smart people who want to know more and want to grow. It’s totally different.
What’s the transition? How do we relate the two? You found out how to say it. How have you been able to take what you learned in Timeshare sales and then see a correlation with high ticket phone sales? I’m having a hard time visualizing and bridging that gap.
It’s funny you said that because to me, they’re the same thing. Timeshare is like the quintessential high ticket sale. These people don’t want it. People would be like eating their eggs in the morning, spitting the eggs at you and stick their finger in your face and say, “I don’t want this.” Then, 90 minutes later they’re doing the deal for $20,000 and you’re like, “This is insane.” With high ticket, to me, it was like this is the exact same process, but I get to do it over the phone. When I was in the Timeshare resort, one of the things I hated was showing up to the resort all the time.
I read The 4-Hour Workweek and it ruined me. There’s a saying in it where it’s like, “Life’s great when your business expenses are in rupees, you get paid in dollars and you live on pesos.” I’m like, “That’s brilliant. Why would I not do that?” Here in Bali, I get $7 massage three times a week. The crazy part is people are nice here. That’s the best part. Everywhere I go, everyone’s happy. No one’s ever mad, no one’s ever frustrated. They’re all smiling. I knew I wanted to be able to take the skill of sales and do it from anywhere. That’s when I got into agencies. Through the path of the agencies, I found myself in high ticket. I was like, this is exactly just a Timeshare presentation, but you get to do it with ethics. You get to do it in a way where you don’t have to follow a hardcore script. It becomes more conversational.
You say it’s exactly the same as a Timeshare presentation. Give me a couple of elements that you do in a Timeshare sales presentation that you still do with maybe a slightly different spin on a high ticket sale. Help me bridge that gap there.
In the beginning of a Timeshare presentation, one of the core things you do is your warm up, which is the rapport portion. You state your intent. Your intent statement is like, “I’m going to ask you about where you are, where you want to be, what the gap is, we’ll get clear on that, figure out what the next steps are and if it’s a good fit, I’ll make an offer. If not, I’ll punch somewhere else. Sounds good?” That is a normal intent statement on a high ticket call, there’s an exact same intended statement. Then, you get into the need portion which is discovering what’s going on. Then, once you know that you hit them hard with, “I can help you” and you shift into how it all works in the demonstration portion. Once you shift from there, it’s into the, “Let’s make a decision or let’s get out of here.”It’s that same flow when it comes to high ticket.
In a Timeshare sales presentation, you set the intent to like, “I’m going to make an offer.” Do you say that upfront?
The whole script is like, after breakfast, “I’m going to share some information about our industry and our company. Then, I’m going to ask you some questions from our survey.” I can go through the whole thing. I still know it by heart. They make you drill it in that much. It’s like basically, I’m going to take you out and show you the property and what it’s worth. Keep in mind that you do some hardcore NLP anchoring, this is a real estate presentation. It’s as much about real estate as it is in Timeshare. You go through this whole process and at the end, one out of four families is going to buy so whether it’s for you or not, that’s totally fine. ”All I ask is to keep an open mind, take a look at what I’ve got to show you and tell me if it’s something that you feel would benefit your family or not. Is that fair enough?” That’s your intent and from there you go right into your survey like, how many times do you go for a vacation? It’s just a normal discovery process.
You may have sold me on going into a Timeshare sales presentation. My wife’s going to kill me though. We’re about to go to North Carolina. They’re long. Aren’t they like all day?
They’re technically 90 minutes, but usually, they end up being about two to three hours depending on how fast it goes.
I’ll make sure that I put it on my list for the webinar vault because I always go through when I dissect sales presentations. Earlier, I did FortuneBuilders. I went to a real estate sales seminar which was fascinating. I bought a $200-three-day seminar ticket and a $100 upsell. I get how this works for business opportunities or for business sales but you mentioned it earlier, what if you’re a health coach? How is the process the same? There’s a big objection that it’s easy to sell people on how to make money or how to grow your business. How does this apply to somebody in the health niche?
To give you an idea, I bought a high ticket health program. You know Nic Peterson, I bought that stuff. I know tons of people who when they’re on the inside they love it. They say it’s the best thing they’ve ever done, it transforms their life. I’ve lost 30 pounds this year and a lot of credit goes to where credit is due. Thanks to what I learned in implementing that stuff. It’s the same. It’s their own mindset that’s thinking that nobody’s going to pay that. It’s also the idea that let me study what everyone else in my market does. My girlfriend, she’s all about buying health programs and trying to find the workout that’s going to make her have the perfect butt.
All these programs are $17 and these girls have a million plus audience. I’m sitting there and wanting to pull my hair out. I’m like, “If these girls knew how to sell high ticket, they’d be banking $5 million, $10 million by now. This is a joke.” They think I can only sell $47 offer and it’s just on your head. Even getting in touch with your intuition, there’s high ticket. There’s a dude in the space who’s doing high ticket usually like $300,000, $400,000 a month teaching people how to do a handstand.
I know what you’re talking about, I saw that interview.
That guy is teaching people how to do a handstand, what’s your excuse if you help someone lose 20, 30 pounds or if you help someone revolutionize their health. A lot of the people that I’ve helped, enrolled into high ticket programs or coach through high ticket program. One girl just got a response back. Her new client got her tests back and now she has no more autoimmune disease or autoimmune disorder. Who wouldn’t pay $4,000 or $5,000 for that? You’d be out of your mind if you have an autoimmune disease and you don’t invest. When it comes to health, that’s even more important than wealth, finances, business opportunity or even relationships. I’ve seen and helped people enroll upwards of $8,000, $9,000 for relationship offers. It’s all in that person’s mind if they think that it won’t work. I can go out and collect references from people like I said, selling a handstand program and every sort of more vertical from money, from relationships, from health, all three of those core three. There’s people out there and making it work.
If you wouldn’t mind, let’s go through an example. It’s all about getting them to see the value. If you’re investing a $3,000 or $5,000 investment into some health transformation especially when there is a huge segment of your competitors or of the market that is probably sellinga verylow ticket, the health niche is a great example. They’re selling $7, $47, or maybe $120. What is the biggest shift that needs to be made from the expert or the salesperson to be able to position that as not a $129 program or DVD, but instead $3,000, $5,000 or $8,000 transformation program? What’s the biggest shift that needs to be made so their prospect understands the value?
People are going to think that the biggest shift is going to be something that’s in the product. It’s not in the product, it’s inside of themselves. The biggest shift is going to be from feeling like you’re taking from them. Normally, someone who is selling at a lower price point, is going to feel like, “Why can’t I charge that? Why wouldn’t they buy something for cheaper? It’s these internal beliefs that create the doubt. To recognize that you’re giving them an opportunity. The opportunity that you’re giving them is to actually freaking commit.
These people have probably bought those $47 offers. They probably bought multiple of them and you know what? They haven’t done anything with them until they get to a point where they invest $3,000 or $5,000. They show up with all their energy and they give themselves no other choice but to succeed. They probably won’t succeed because they’re going to find a way to fail. When you give someone that opportunity, that platform, they will thank you for the rest of their lives. They’ll look back at that moment that they decided to invest in themselves because they’re not even investing in you. Nobody I’ve ever sold a high ticket program to was investing in me. They’re not investing in me but in themselves. To give someone that opportunity to invest in themselves in a big way, that’s the best gift you can give someone.
It’s probably giving them the ability to see that for themselves. When I say that, I’m speaking about the potential prospect, potential customer. It’s allowing them to see that they’re investing in themselves. I want to shift here and I want to pivot to the framework and the process of a webinar to the sales call. In this process, we’re talking about how the expert is closing the deal themselves. What happens when they try to scale and they want to bring on a phone salesperson to replace them from the phone? In the process of replacing the expert, what needs to happen in terms of the handoff? We’ve got the webinar, now they’re scheduling a call with somebody other than themselves. What is important to make sure that that transition is smooth and effective?
When you have a webinar, when you have an email series, and you have all these stuff, people are probably also seeing you on Facebook. Maybe they added you as a friend and they had been scoping you out. They have been at least checking you out long enough to poke around your page, watch your testimonials, see what you’re about. You’ve built up this bank account of trust. If you imagine trust as this account and you put all these trust deposits into it, so there’s your trust fund. When they get on the call, then you have a lot that you can withdraw from because they already view you as smart. Just the fact that you have a webinar, the fact that you have an email automation sequence, the fact that you have those things in place and then you’re the one actually talking to them, they show up honored and feel it’s a privilege a lot of times to talk to you. Then, when you shift to a salesperson, the whole dynamic changes. They’ll feel like, “I’m just talking to a sales guy when I thought I was going to be talking to so and so.”
What you want to do is one of the things that we work on this whole process called the transfer of trust. Basically, it’s a pre-framing series where you’re getting this person to hype up your salesperson. When they get on the call with the salesperson, they see that salesperson as someone they already respect and trust. Otherwise, your salesperson is starting from scratch and it’s almost like you go into the negative because now they feel like I got bait, switched and they are pissed.
Is it important for that to be approached on the webinar? Let’s say that’s the conversion mechanism to get somebody to book a call. I’m doing a webinar and I say, “You’re going to book a call with a member on my staff,” or is that not necessary?
It’s preferable but it’s not necessary. For most people, they record a hit webinar and it’s almost like they don’t want to go back in and overdo it. You can do it inside of your followup series too. If I’m a salesperson, I would much rather have that but it’s not totally necessary. It’s easy to still hit home runs consistently without having you clearly saying you’re going to be talking to a member or my team.
Is it possible for a salesperson to outperform the actual expert on the phone? In terms of positioning, is there any way to make that more valuable?
Are you asking, is there a way for that when someone talks to the salesperson that they more so to talk to the salesperson than the founder or that the salesperson closes more than the founder?
It totally is. You have to invest in that salesperson over the long-term. You have to build content around them and with them. The further that we scale webinars, what we find is that you’re going to colder and colder audiences. When you’re spending, let’s say $500 a day, you’re not in the deep blue ocean yet. When you start spending, let’s say you’re doing a $1,000 a day or $2,000 a day in that range, now you’re talking to people that have no clue what’s going on, have never heard of you. They don’t even know people like Russell Brunson sometimes. They’re not going to know anybody in the space or even understand it. You’re talking a totally foreign language to some of those people which is awesome because you’re the first person that they see. You’re the first person that they learn this stuff from and they trust, but usually what we’ll see is it’s a longer cycle to get that person to buy, so we want to extend the nurturing path as much as possible.
My very first webinar client, I looked at his webinar and I’m like, “This webinar sucks, let me rewrite it for you. Also, let me read, let me pitch it for you.” I was delivering the webinar on his behalf and we increased sales by fourteen fold. It was a direct selling webinar and he was doing about one sale a week. Two weeks later when I gave it, we did fourteen sales. We had $14,000 from that week’s promotion of the direct selling webinar. The way that it was positioned, I was actually operating as a case study. It’s very powerful when you’re able to edify the expert and say, “I’m speaking on his behalf.” If you can even get some results, do a quick win, somehow position yourself as a case study or just edifying that expert, I think there is a way to make that drastically more powerful. It’s like the perfect storm, you got to be the great presenter and the great closer. There’s definitely potential for that. That gets me excited to try that again because I haven’t thought about it until our call.
That definitely works. It’s funny you say that because that’s one of the things when we go to hiring, the more experience that we can have with someone the better it is. The problem is that when someone goes to hire someone, people have this idea like, “I just need a closer.” I hear it all the time. If someone has a totally broken funnel and they come to you and go, “Joel, I just need ads or I just need a webinar.” Then, you look at it and you’re like, “Your offer is trash. You’re going to this audience and they don’t even have any money. This doesn’t even make sense. You don’t need a webinar, you need to fix everything.” That’s what people will do with salespeople. They’ll have this assumption that all I need is a salesperson then everything will be fixed. They go and do it. If you’re a guru with a webinar funnel and you say, “I need a salesperson.” You can have people come out of the woodwork. It’s like if someone makes it in rap music and how they have all these cousins calling them that they haven’t even talked to in years. They say, “Let’s hang out.” There are going to be all these “closers”, they come out and suddenly they are now amazing at sales and they really want to help you.
When you’re hiring closers, it’s a bit different than hiring an admin or someone in an ads role because these people are deceivingly good at talking game. How do you know that? When you put them into the test then they’re going to show out. Most people don’t understand. I use this matrix when we’re hiring. There are different factors that we’re looking for. You are not going to get all of them in one person unless it’s a total miracle and when you do, you better hire that person immediately. You’re waiving these certain criteria and one of them is the more experience that they have with whoever it is. It’s maybe they’ve been a client, maybe someone who worked in a different capacity or worked with them at a different job and they just believe in that person, in what they do and see how it works, that’s going to help you immensely.
What do you think is the most important skill set in hiring a salesperson? When closers start to approach you like, “I’m a closer.” They might be great at selling themselves to you, but how do we know that they’re great at selling your product to your customers? What do you find is the single greatest trait in hiring an excellent and superb salesperson?
It comes down to a matrix, but the biggest single trade is belief. They have to believe in what they’re offering. They have to believe in themselves. If someone has that level of belief, then we can make them close. What happens is you have people put on braggadocio. They put on this bravado and its obvious the insecurity. It’s that saying that confidence is quiet. Also, they need to have a real belief in themselves, in the product, in what the offer is, and in the market. The more that they have belief across all the board, then the easier it is going to get them to ramp quick.
Belief is all about sales and sales is all about belief. That salesperson has to have beliefs. They have to be sold on that product that they’re selling. They have to be indoctrinated, they have to be completely committed and bought in into that offer as well, is that what you’re saying?
That’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s also about believing in themselves, too. If you find someone who’s trying to tell you how great they are to make up for their own insecurities, that person is not going to do well. It’s simple and plain. People will not be closing. Say you’ve got someone who’s athletic. I’m like, “When was the last time you went to the gym?” They’re like, “I fell off. I haven’t been going to the gym for a few weeks now and I’ve been eating badly.” I’ll say, “Fix that.” Once they fixed that, then, they’re closing again. It’s because they get off track and they start losing that belief in themselves that they then start closing less.
How do you find belief? How do you know if somebody has that belief in themselves? Is it something that you can identify relatively quickly with a new salesperson or maybe we don’t even call them a salesperson? What types of people have that natural belief? A lot of times when we hire salespeople, we’re not even saying it’s a sales job. They’re looking for this different person then they morph them into that role. Maybe that’s not your belief but I’ve just heard that a couple of times.
Normally, I wouldn’t do that. I want someone to fundamentally love the game of sales. Once you realize how to do it and do it well and help people, it’s fun. It’s not something that you need to feel ashamed about and it’s not something you need to feel bad about. Ultimately, how do you find that person who has belief? That’s why I get paid the big bucks, Joel. It takes ear-training. It’s like becoming a musician. I can hear belief and I know exactly when I hear it. I had one client who was going through the interviewing process. I’ll shadow them and listen to some of their interviews and help them go through. When they find candidates that they feel confident about, I help them with that. We had this guy and he’s like, “This is the guy,” and then I’m like, “You didn’t catch this? He’s like, “What do you mean?” I’m like, “Rewind this and listen to this again,” and he listens to it. There was some inconsistency in what he was saying and I’m like, “You need to go back and talk to this guy and dig into this.”
When we did, we found out that this guy was full of crap. He was lying about everything and the whole thing unraveled. Then, my client was like, “Thank God I figured that out before I hired him.” It’s like when you’re a musician, if you’re Stevie Wonder, he can hear what key the song is in. For us as the average listener, we can’t hear that. We’re totally blind to what key the song is in. He can’t see but he’ll hear it immediately. It’s that same thing. It takes real ear training, it takes time in the trenches, it takes having done thousands and thousands of sales presentations. I’ll know when someone’s telling me the truth or not and I can just feel it. My ear has gotten so dialed in and the sensory acuity gets high that I can see someone’s body language when talking to them on the phone without any video.
That’s after practice. That’s the skill and the art.
When you do this for that long, you can start to hear it. I would never ever advise someone to go through the process of hiring this out on their own. The biggest thing that I see too is when you hire a salesperson and it’s a bad salesperson, then, you got to ramp your traffic up. Let’s say, you’re spending an additional $5,000, $10,000 a month in ads just to feed this person apps. Now, that person’s not closing any of those apps so the opportunity costs on that traffic is somewhere around $50,000 to $100,000. Just an opportunity cost and you’re amping up your ad spend to do it. Plus, they’re probably burning some of your goodwill in the marketplace. You have all these factors working against you at the same time.
The worst thing, I’ll see all people come to me and go, “I hired someone and it didn’t work out.” They’ll do it three or four times until I wise up and realize that maybe I should get some help with this. Normally, what will happen is they’ll get to that point where they try and scale your traffic. They try to scale that webinar. It doesn’t work out. They fire that person and they’ll dial back. Then, they gun-shy for another two or three months. They’ll hire the next person and then they’ll ramp back up and get all hyped up and it doesn’t work out again. They find themselves in this position where they’ve lost three, four, six months that you could blow past competition. For example, with one of the companies that I was helping out, we went from $100,000 a month to $500,000 a month in six months. That’s all it takes to close that gap. Once you have that put out into the marketplace, you’re way out in front of everybody. You can start to test different things. You can start to test different platforms, test all new offers and get the market cornered.
It is such a skill to not only know how to close, but the true leverage point is understanding how you find the right people that reflect your brand, that are bringing the right customers in and doing that at scale. That’s super critical and that’s what you do. Specifically, what are you working on with your clients? Are you just helping them find closers? Are you helping them close more?
The main thing is helping them find closers. I’ll help them find them. Here’s the other thing that I learned and I learned this the hard way. I thought like, “I’m amazing at sales. Obviously, I can teach how to sell.” That was the dumbest thing I ever thought in my life. Teaching sales and selling are totally different skill sets and managing salespeople and selling are totally different skill sets. In fact, they’re the opposite. Imagine if you go and listen to a webinar presentation, you’ll have many references and metamodels. When you’re hearing it, you’re not watching the same webinar as someone who doesn’t have that same amount of experience watching webinars that you do. You could then try and teach that to someone and you’ll teach them everything under the sun. Then, they’ll end up more confused than you found them.
That was what happened to me. I was good at sales. I knew everything and I studied it for so long. Granted, you can never know everything but I felt I did. When I’m seeing it sometimes I’ll be on a call and feel I’m in The Matrix. I’m seeing the numbers. I can stop the bullets, dodge pass things and it’s so fun, but when I was trying to teach that it just wasn’t working. I was turning through salespeople trying to teach that at first. I realized this is a totally different thing. I got to simplify it and figure out what’s the actual 80/20 of the 80/20 of this. Find that 4% that moves the 64%.
Once I can get that and these fundamentals then I can start to get people up and running fast. That was another lesson that I had to learn. Most people that I see who tried to do this is they’ll go, “Here are some call recordings. Here’s my script. Take some calls. We’ll meet at the end of every day. I’ll tell you everything I know that there is possibly to know about taking a sales call with this market and this offer. You just got to go, put it back into play and try to remember everything.” Then, the person gets overwhelmed. They’ll then wonder why they can’t close consistently.
Once you find someone, then people will need extra support. They’ll need support with how do I manage the system? How do I build this system? How do I scale the system? How do I train these people? I’m helping with ongoing training, and management, and scaling of the systems, too. My first introductory offer is finding a closer and helping someone get up and running with that. What also happens is because I’m already training people every now and then, I’ll open the doors for a small number of entrepreneurs who want to be one-man sales teams. Maybe they’re not closing or they’re struggling with closing and I’m already doing it anyway. Every now and then, I’ll invite them to join the group. It adds that energy and it makes it cool inside.
I love that offer by the way. It’s huge for entrepreneurs to get out of their own way in every aspect. You and I both invested in some high-level mentorships in a similar fashion. It’s important for someone to get out of their own way and hire the experts. Hire somebody who has been there before and who understands that maybe you’re explaining your offer wrong or if you are sick of being on the phones, get off the phone as quickly as possible. The only reason why I haven’t scaled my own sales team is that I hate taking sales calls. I have drastically limited my calendar. I’m very transparent about my prices. If somebody books a call on my calendar, I’d say, “I see we got a call in a couple of days. Here’s my pricing. Here’s what it’s going to do for you. If you’re okay with that then we’ll have an enrollment call or a pre-enrollment call.” I despise sales. How many clients get to that point? I’ve probably been burned because I’m sick of being on sales calls. I’ve just given up on that. Is that a typical path that a lot of people get to? It’s like, “I’m just so sick of sales calls.”
Especially when they’re the only person taking sales calls. It gets amplified big time because they feel trapped. They can’t take a vacation without their revenue dipping or they are just glued to their phone. It happened to me too. My family was like, “Do you want to join us out in Vail and go snowboarding?” I’m like, “I do but if I don’t take calls then we’re going to lose money.” I wasn’t able to be with my parents and brother and snowboard. That sucks. That feeling of being trapped gets frustrating. Then, the other thing that’s agonizing sometimes is talking to people who have no intention of doing anything.
They’re just there to talk because you offered a free call. It’s like, “This information isn’t even going to help you because you’re not even going to do anything with it.” Obviously, we’ve been investing a lot in mentoring because what we understand is opportunity costs and time. The value of time and the opportunity costs of not learning something or learning something the hard way. We’re all about, “Let’s accelerate to the end result. Let’s shorten that learning curve.” We know that any little marginal percentage that increases either my well-being, the time that I get to enjoy and the time that I get to focus on higher value activities, the overall sales that I’m making. Marginal little percentage will compound into big things.
The other thing that is often not talked about is the fact that as the expert, as the business owner, a lot of times when we run these high ticket programs, is like, “If you’re always selling, that time that you are spending on the phone, its time that you’re taking away from fulfilling too.” There has to be a very strict balance of how much time you allow yourself to spend selling and you still have to fulfill after you sold that person. That fulfillment time takes time as well. That was one of the major burnouts that happened to me as I tried to sell my own program and services. I make a sale then I got to fulfill while I’m still handling all these sales calls. It was an awful balance. That’s just one personal experience/comment that I will make on why you need to get out of your own way.
This is one of the things that I’ve taken away from working with Kevin. I found it mind-blowing because part of why I wanted to work with Kevin is he has been doing this for fifteen years in the game and he’s still relevant as ever. That’s insane. Not many people have that longevity. What’s that guy doing? That was my question. What is he doing that he doesn’t take that many sales calls, has this model set up and he’s still hyper-relevant? What I found interesting was how he designed his model to optimize his time for study. He’s constantly studying markets and his craft. He’s constantly studying, so he’s always innovating and always getting better. That is why he’s still relevant now. Whereas if you’re just in client fulfillment and just in sales, you’re not going to then outpace the competition and stay ahead of the time.
It’s super important especially in the world of this digital age. I’m using ClickFunnels as a perfect example. Years ago when they launched, they were ahead at that time. They were the only funnel building software that was out on the market. They were an easy landing page tool. Since 2014, 2015 when they launched they have made incremental improvements but the software itself is junk. Now, a couple of other competitors like Kartra out there has outpaced them. I haven’t used them. I’m sick of ClickFunnels that I firmly believe they’ve done an excellent job of selling and a terrible job of innovating, perfecting and staying ahead of the competition. That applies to all areas of business. I’m just trying to validate exactly what you said. You have to have the balance of marketing and selling versus fulfillment then research and development. Those are three core areas that will give you that longevity and give you that stability.
It’s one of the things that you hear Jay Abraham talk about a lot too. He’s one of those kinds of OGs who’s still relevant. He says, “The pace at which you can engineer breakthroughs in your marketing, your strategy and in the overall innovation of your product is going to be the thing that keeps you in the game for the long-term.”
That’s all about building brand too. There’s this delicate balance. Sales has to come first, then marketing. Then, you build your brand equity and everything that we just talked about. If you don’t have the replacement for yourself on the phone or as that sales mechanism, you are going to get burned out and you’re going to be running in this rat race, running in circles of not having time to do anything else in your business. I’ve seen a lot of people throw in the towel because they haven’t been able to delegate this specific thing properly.
I love our conversation. We talked about mastering the process. We talked about how you came from Timeshare sales and the importance of all of those elements that happen in a sales conversation. Setting the intention, getting them to see the gap and committing to invest in themselves. We talked about the important numbers and important metrics that need to happen on a sales call. Ultimately, the importance of removing yourself from the conversion mechanism so you can focus on the other core elements of building your business: practicing your craft, building your brand, and serving your customers. Those are the elements of building a businessman, practicing your craft, building your brand and serving your customers which those are the elements of building a business. Did we miss anything that you wanted to make sure that we talked about?
That’s it. This has been a blast and I appreciate you for having me. I hope we do it again in the future because this has been one of the fun things I’ve done in a while.
Where can people connect with you? Where can they reach out? Where can they find more about hiring you for growing their sales presence and getting your help with finding the perfect salesperson and then setting up the metrics and setting up the systems?
My website is www.NetMore.io. It’s just a quick case study. You can go through and check that out. I give a lot of free training on an email sequence so that’s something that people can check out. Also, Facebook is the place to find me. That’s where I am the majority of the time. If you search for Mike Mark. Find me, add me, shoot me a message and say if you’ve read the interview. Let me know how you liked it or what your key takeaways were. For me, I like that intimacy. I like to be able to talk to people and get to know people. That’s one of the blessings of sales, your world grows by learning about people, where they’re from, what they’re doing. You get to be genuinely interested. That’s what makes it fun. If you find me on Facebook, that’s my ultimate favorite but other than that www.NetMore.io is the place to check out some of the stuff that we’re working on.
Mike, I had a blast. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and explaining the value and importance of properly setting up the sale for your customers and ultimately setting them up for success. With high ticket sales, yes, you can turn people away and you should just to maintain your sanity. I appreciate you sharing wisdom on karmic debt. I also loved what you came up with the Timeshare experience. Mike, thank you so much. For everyone else, I will see you in the next episode.
About Mike Mark
Company Name: NetMore.io
Are you looking for a salesperson who can free up your time, so you can stop fielding/taking sales calls and get back to growing your business?
Have you thought about how to train that person?
What about the day to day process for tracking and reporting?
There’s a lot to consider when bringing on sales staff. If you’re looking to grow your business through hiring sales staff, send me a message and I’m happy to walk you through the process.
Teja, the CEO of Gun.io shares his results:
“Mike is excellent — he has the right mix of hustle and strategy — which is incredibly rare in this space. Since working with Mike, I was able to get out of my funnel and grow the business business to the point that we are making more per week than we did in a month. He has my highest recommendation for any business owner.”