Weird Ways To Monetize With Webinars with Matt Wolfe And Joe Fier | #56
Webinars has become more and more popular among people who want to establish themselves as experts in the field, most especially if they have a product or a service to offer. Giving you some unique approaches to running automated webinars are Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe. They are the co-founders of Evergreen Profits, which helps people get seen online in competitive industries. They touch on topics like Google traffic and brand awareness, discussing some SEO techniques regarding keywords and content. They guide you through getting clicks based on buyer intent and retargeting. Exploring further on invisible podcast funnels, Matt and Joe give great insights to those who want to grow their business in this platform.
Weird Ways To Monetize With Webinars with Matt Wolfe And Joe Fier
You are in for an amazing episode. It’s been a while since I’ve tuned in with an interview-style episode and I wanted to bring to you two very talented and very successful entrepreneurs in the marketing space. I have my interview with Matt Wolfe and Joe Fier from Evergreen Profits. They also run a podcast called The Hustle and Flowchart Podcast. Matt and Joe are two amazing guys, very lighthearted, very fun, and we jammed on all things, webinars, marketing and traffic. I wanted to bring this episode to you because they have a very unique approach to running automated webinars. We talked for quite a while on Google traffic. We talked on this thing called the invisible podcast funnel that they are doing and also what they’re doing with webinars. You are going to absolutely love this episode. I hope you understand how fun and lighthearted these guys are because I had such a blast on this call. Let’s jump into this episode so you can figure out how to leverage a unique style of an automated webinar and also learn a bit of traffic in this episode as well. Let’s jump right into it.
We are going to have a lot of fun. It has been a while. It has been months since I’ve done an interview-style podcast. You are in for a very special treat. We’re doing something very unique that I have yet to do. I have two special guests on the show, Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe with Evergreen Profits. Matt, Joe, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having us.
It’s been a while since I’ve had anyone else to jam on. I’m normally on my phone or sitting behind a computer screen talking to thin air but we get to jam now. We get to talk about all things and webinars and all things traffic strategies. You are doing some amazing things with your podcasts and webinars on the back end. I would love for you to give us an introduction of what Evergreen Profits is. How did you guys meet?
We’ve had this long progression of what we do. We started as an info business. We’ve done some agency work. We were a consulting company then we eventually circled back around to be an agency business. Then we circled back around to be an info business. For the better part, we’ve been an education company where we sell online courses. We have a podcast called The Hustle and Flowchart Podcast where we talk about branding, traffic strategies and systematizing your business. We have courses on traffic and affiliate marketing. We have a course on chatbots and content marketing where we do a lot with affiliate marketing so it’s like the invisible part of the business.
We always tell people that our largest revenue driver is affiliate product. We sell way more with affiliate products than we do with our own products. We do have some consulting in the mix but for the most part, we’re a digital marketing information company where we sell education and we recommend software and tools to people who go through our educational courses. We earn affiliate revenue off those.
Where do webinars fit into your business model? I know, Matt, you said it was on the backend somewhere.
At the moment, we don’t even have any webinars for our own products. We do webinars for other people’s products. We have webinars for affiliate products. The way we do webinars is fairly unique from the way most people do them. The way we typically do webinars is we’ll find people who already have good, high-converting webinars and they have an affiliate program. For a simple example let’s say ClickFunnels. ClickFunnels has a handful of good high-converting webinars already that work really well. We would go and find one of the webinars that they’re already running.
We’d go and get permission and say, “Can we run this webinar as well?” We’ll get someone like Russell Brunson to create a little intro on the front of it and say, “Thanks so much for joining me. I’m here with Matt and Joe. We’re going to dive into some cool stuff.” We’ll have him create a little intro for us. We’ll tackle on that intro to the front of the video and then use their existing automated webinars and run it through our own automated webinar sequence, drive our own traffic to it and we start making sales of the affiliate product through it.
It’s brilliant on a couple of different levels. I’m not big into affiliate marketing. I’m getting into it a little bit more. In my opinion, it’s like the holy grail. It’s like you sell something and then you forget it and you just get by it. There’s no fulfillment.
That’s exactly why we focused on the marketing side of it, traffic and that’s where we love the traffic. If you can control eyeballs, direction and engagement, then you can sell anything. We made a very conscious effort to focus on affiliate marketing because we like to experiment with so many models. We’ve been working on and off together. We have a long history back. I know we didn’t see that. We tested everything, but affiliate marketing always was that thing in the background and we kept ramping it up. You don’t have to fulfill on the product, you just eat them up to that conversion point.
In saying that though, affiliate marketing does have some downsides. With affiliate marketing, you do lose a little bit of control. Let’s say you’re sending people to somebody else’s sales page. You don’t necessarily have a ton of control over the conversion. All you can do is pre-sell them before they hit the page or the conversion happens. You don’t necessarily have all the tracking. If you’re running Google Ads, Facebook Ads and things like that, it’s difficult to have a conversion pixel on the success page after someone buys. Some of those little things we’ve had to find workarounds for or get creative to help optimize for conversions and things like that. There are some downsides but the biggest beauty of it is you push them over. They close the sale and do the customer support. They handle all the development, all of the expensive hard part, and all we get to do is focus on driving traffic and being marketers.
I joined an expensive webinar mastermind because I’ve never been in the JV webinar game and it’s a beast. It’s its own ball of wax over there. I’ve got a couple of partner clients that I’m working on and I always want to learn the best. I’ve learned about the strategy of getting custom introductions from the partner. It’s very similar to what you were doing. If I understand correctly, you’re getting permission first, then you’re taking that existing automated webinar and you’re tacking on a custom introduction. Then you’re sending them to the same link or is it still your affiliate link?
What we’ll often do is we’ll make our own custom call to action at the end as well so that we’re overlaying our own specific URL and occasionally we’re throwing in some additional bonuses. We do have info products and courses we’ve made. We will tack on some additional bonuses and things like that at the end as well.
As much as we can control in this affiliate game in this process, we try to do that, that starts also with our relationships. That goes for our audience is we all have our own relationships. That’s a great place to start with any affiliate marketing if you’re interested. Usually, you can get some better access. Maybe you can put a conversion pixel that will allow you to drop a pixel on a custom conversion page. If you could leverage the relationships, you can definitely do a lot more.
To add to that point, the beauty of affiliate marketing too is if you find some products and you can do really well with them and you can sell a lot of them, usually the product creator is willing to work with you. What we’ve noticed over time is when we start driving a lot of traffic and a lot of sales to some of these affiliate offers, they are more likely to go and create a custom landing page for us and a custom success URL for us after the purchase. We can send them a little document with our tracking pixels and they’ll piece them on there for us. We do have a handful of affiliates that have done that for us but that came after we gave them some results. Then they know we’re legit, we’re the real deal. We can’t drive traffic, we can’t drive sales. Let’s go ahead and work with them to help them scale what they’re doing.
How many webinars do you guys typically run of affiliate automated webinars at one time? Is it usually one at a time or are you having multiple funnels running at once?
We have multiple but we don’t try to do too many because we like to keep our finger on the pulse. We have about two to three at any given time. We constantly love to optimize so we’re constantly looking at all of our metrics. We like to have a handful of metrics for every part of our business, looking at the conversion rate, how much traffic we’re sending, then make the tiny little tweaks and it’s a small incremental growth maybe 2%, 3% every single week. That stuff’s going to compound into something great call it a year from now or a month from now.
Let’s talk about what you love to do, traffic and brand awareness. My primary source of traffic comes from two things, podcasts and paid media. I didn’t realize how much traffic I could generate from organic Facebook but that’s a big source as well. Those are my three primary sources of traffic. What about you? You’re the traffic junkies, let’s talk traffic.
The way we teach traffic is we try to create symbiotic relationships between all of us and the traffic sources. Being on a podcast is a big one for us, doing our own podcast is a big one for us, but then the meat of what we do and what we teach is a combination of SEO, Google Ads and Facebook Ads. Those three are our big three focuses that combined with the podcast, and that’s what we’re doing. We’re building a list as we go, and that list is going to help us drive repeat traffic and returning visitors. We’re starting to experiment with YouTube Ads a little bit but we’re not experts on that yet.
You hear about the Facebook experts, the YouTube guys or the Google guys and we’ve interviewed a ton of them. It’s cool and all but we don’t want to just get pigeonholed into one thing. Imagine a platform getting slapped or your account gets banned for some reason you don’t know why. We like to spread the deck and diversify. There are different psychological things happening on different platforms too. If you can think where your people are at, at the time you’re trying to engage with them, set it up with the right content on that platform but then tie them all together so you’re everywhere to your perfect audience, to your perfect avatar there.
That’s the paradigm shift that a lot of folks don’t think about. Figure out what’s your best input. For us, it’s usually Google Ads but then a byproduct of that is SEO on very targeted keywords. That’s free traffic, so you do both. Then you have the Facebook retargeting pixels, GDN, Google retargeting pixels and YouTube. You feed the pixel and then leveraging all the platforms.
To piggyback on what Joe was saying, different platforms have different purposes for driving traffic. Facebook is not the greatest traffic platform for going as somebody cold. If we put an ad out there and we targeted fans of DigitalMarketer and said, “We’re teaching traffic. Come by our traffic course.” It’s probably not going to do too well because most of the people we’re getting in front of they don’t know who we are. We don’t have any credibility with them. They’re scrolling through their newsfeed. They want to know what their family members and friends are up to. Then they see a traffic course thrown in front of them and they’re like, “I don’t know what this is,” and they keep on scrolling.
On the other hand, there’s a lot of buyer intent traffic on Google. If somebody was typing into Google, “How do I run Facebook Ads? How do I drive more traffic?” Any keyword around, “How do I get more traffic?” That’s going to be a lot more buyer intent. This is somebody that has a problem at this moment that is doing a search to find a solution to that problem. That’s why we like Google Ads and SEOs so much. If we show up in those search results at the moment they have the problem and we provide their solution when they’re searching for it, then we’re much more likely to make that sale than if we’re just in the feed when they’re scrolling through Facebook. The way we run traffic is we start with Google Ads. Google Ads are pretty much always our starting point. We try to think of, “What would somebody be searching for that is the ideal prospect for our product? What keywords would they be searching for?”
We do this with affiliate offers too. We do it more with affiliate offers than we do with our own courses. Let’s say for an example we have a product that helps people put opt-in forms on their blog, a little slide, plug-in and opt-in for. If somebody was searching for the best blog opt-in plug-in, if they’re searching for a plug-in right now, what we’ll do is we’ll put an article that’s closely tied to that keyword they just searched for. The article might be, “Here are ten blog opt-in plug-ins that we recommend.” We’ll probably have one that we want them to buy but we’ll compare ten so they’re getting the full range. They would all have affiliate links but the one we want is the one we try to push them to through our content. They read that article. Chances are most people aren’t going to buy off of reading that article.
We’ve noticed that we do get a percentage of people who will buy directly but most people won’t buy off that article. Then what we’re going to do is we’re going to take those people over to Facebook over to Google Display Network and then retarget anybody who read that article with the one affiliate offer that we wanted them to buy in the first place. They’ll read our article and we built some credibility. We are now their expert because they read an article from us when they searched for the problem they’re having. We indoctrinated them through our content. Now, they’re going to start seeing ads from us on Facebook and on other people’s blogs through the Google Display Network. Our offer to this affiliate product is going to pop up everywhere for them and that’s when we close the sale is through that retargeting process.
This is fascinating to me because I never thought that ads can be profitable with affiliate products. Not that I didn’t think they couldn’t be profitable. I would assume that it had to be a pretty high commission percentage. If you’re selling a tool and you’re running ads to an affiliate offer, that’s internal beliefs that are breaking in my mind. Also I don’t advertise on Google, so I have no idea how much Google will cost to run ads.
It depends. We have a baseline for affiliate commissions. We want to have about $100 commission minimum to us. More often than not, we’re able to have at least a 50% margin or so there to have some budget for Google and all the other platforms we’re advertising.
One of the things that we do when it comes to traffic and buying traffic is we only run our numbers about once per month and we do all of our advertising and we look at it in aggregate. Let’s say this opt-in plug-in that we’re talking about here, at the end of the month we’ll go and do an audit of how well it did. We’ll go and say, “How much should we spend on Google Ads, Facebook Ads and Google Display Network? How much should we spend across all of these to promote this product? How many sales did we make on this product?”
As long as how many sales we made on this product is more than how much we spend, we’re going to keep on going with that promotion because we’re looking at it in aggregate. It’s hard to say, “We’re spending a lot of money on these Google Ads and we’re not making any direct sales off of these initial Google Ads. It’s easy to say those aren’t profitable. Let’s turn them off.” These Google Ads are what is making that second impression and getting that sale. You need to look at your ad spend as this bigger picture, not just a per campaign thing. That’s the mind shift that a lot of people need to get over in order to run this kind of strategy.
People quit too early usually. They don’t let the promotion run. Many people try to figure out the targeting and beat the system for Facebook or Google. Google AdWords is where our best input is for engaged audiences. If you can do that and then feed all the other pixels and let the rocket scientist at Facebook figure out the best targeting for you and all of that, then you can get funky creative with it.
Is the primary reason that you started with Google, is it because you can target buyer intent or is Google also much more scalable than say, Facebook?
It’s definitely the buyer intent element. The way we do things, we haven’t found it to be a ton more scalable for the reason that a lot of times we’re going after long tail keywords. There are a few ways to scale. The way we typically start is we’ll start with Google Ads with just targeting the US. If something starts to pick up, drive a lot of traffic and build our pixel then we start seeing sales, we go, “That’s working. Let’s add in the UK.” We’ll clone the campaign to the UK. Next, we’ll clone it to Australia then we’ll clone it to Canada then we’ll clone it to New Zealand. That’s about as far as we’ll go.
A lot of times we won’t even bother going into countries where English isn’t the first language because it doesn’t generate enough results for us. The two ways we can scale with the Google side of things is going after different territories and then finding new long tail keywords to go after. The thing is we’re lazy when it comes to that. Once we have five or six long tails that are really working for us, we’re not super motivated to go and add more. At that point, we typically go introduce another product.
Some people here might not be familiar with SEO and a long tail. The longer your search query, the more niche it’s going to be, the less pool of the audience.
The way SEO fits into this mix is once you find that handful of keywords that work well with Google Ads, then you go and figure out, “How do I optimize these, so I can get these keywords showing and Google for free?” Some people are cool on the paid ads, some people just ignore the advertisements and scroll past them, look at the organic results, and we’re showing up there as well. Our phase two is you find those keywords that are working with the Google Ads and then figure out how to try to rank for them.
Where do webinars fit into this? Have you ever get leveraged paid ads for your affiliate webinars? Google is blowing my mind right now. Has this ever worked for a webinar strategy?
With Google Ads, we’re never driving traffic straight to a webinar. We’ve never done that with Google Ads. However, we are building a ton of different retargeting pixels based on interests. If somebody goes to our blog and they read an article about this opt-in plug-in that we’re talking about, the next time they’re on Facebook, the offer we could be putting in front of them is one of these automated webinars. That’s the type of thing we would put in front of them with the second phase retargeting stuff. The first phase is to find people that have the problem through Google. The second phase is to retarget them to the offer. That offer could be an automated webinar, it could be straight to a sales page, it could be all sorts of things. The other way that we do webinars is another thing that we haven’t talked about yet is our various podcast funnels. We do invisible podcast funnels.
For a summary of what I’ve learned so far from your paid traffic, what you’re doing at phase one is driving traffic from Google to some blog post to build that audience of people who are problem-aware and just looking for a solution depending on the product. Then your phase two approach is then you bring in Facebook. Then you bring your retargeting on Google Display Network and that is where you would promote your webinar. Do you promote webinars on Google Display?
We haven’t done it with Google Display, mostly Facebook. With the webinar specifically, it’s mainly Facebook. One more element with the recap too is with the blog post that we’re driving them through Google, you can’t just go hire an English as a Second Language writer and have them come in and write these blog posts for you. You need to make quality blog posts because another element of this is you are trying to become their go-to expert. When they land on this piece of content, you want them to read it and be like, “This person knows their stuff. This is who I trust. They put out good articles.” If you’re trying to rush it and have somebody cheaply make you an article, it’s not going to be super effective. You’ve got to have some decent quality content so that when people do see you in the future they’re like, “I remember him. He has good stuff.”
This is for all purposes, for buying purposes.
The thing with Google is people think that the SEO is a little tricky or all that stuff. That’s an amazing byproduct. It bypasses a lot of our paid traffic, but it starts with Google. If you can give them good content, Google is worried about engagement. If you can keep them on the site or maybe take them to another link that’s another valuable thing within your ecosystem, Google is going to reward you with better rankings overall.
The phase one of getting the clicks based on the buyer intent and then phase two retargeting, it’s almost like an abandoned cart sequence. I’ve had this theory and I have yet to test it. I’ve had a couple of people who wanted to test with me particularly in eCommerce, but we just never pulled the trigger. Webinars would be super effective with abandoned cart. It’s like, “They’re so close,” but they probably don’t have enough information to make a decision. Then hit them with an automated webinar, retarget with an automated webinar, and sell them a more expensive version of what they’ve already shown interest in. A webinar would crush you with abandoned carts. That is your paid traffic strategy. Let’s talk about this invisible podcast funnel. Matt, we talked a little bit about this, but I am all ears and my podcast audience will be very much interested in this as well.
With our podcast funnel, it borrows a lot of concepts from the stuff we’ve already talked. If you ever tuned into our podcast, we don’t have any sponsors. There are not any strong calls to action and it seems like we’re getting a guest on, we’re chatting with the guests, we’re having a good time and we get some good information. Then the show is over and people are like, “I love their show,” but they’re not asking for anything, what’s going on here? What’s really going on is we always drive people back to our show notes page. Every episode that we do we make a cheat sheet of the episode. It’s like a CliffsNotes version.
At the end of the episode, our call to action is to go to the episode, get the cheat sheet version of this episode so you can have some notes and a quick reference guide for this episode. We send them back to that and then we’re retargeting them. We’re pixeling every single person that comes back to our site and grabs one of these cheat sheets. Then we’re putting different affiliate offers in front of them based on content that they listen to on the podcast. If we had a podcast where we talk about webinars, for example, we might start showing retargeting ads to EverWebinar or Stealth webinar or one of the webinar platforms that exist out there. You listen to a podcast about webinars, all of a sudden on Facebook and Google Display, you start to see ads around webinar tools.
Essentially, the invisible podcast funnel is you listen to the show, you go and get the CliffsNotes, and then all of a sudden, we’re going to follow you around with very relevant products to promote to you. It works with pitching on webinars too. For example, if you’re on our podcast and we did a webinar with you, anybody who listened to our episode with you, we would then retarget all the listeners of that episode back to the registration page for an automated webinar that we might have done with you that sells your courses. We’ve done that with a guy named Aaron Fletcher. We’ve had him on the show a couple of times. We automated a version of his webinar which was the version that was already running.
We had him make an intro and an outro for us and he was on the show twice. Anybody who went to those show notes pages started getting followed around on Facebook with a registration to dive even deeper with us and Aaron. That webinar ran for months and months. Aaron changed up some of his pricing structures and made some changes to his business model so it’s not running anymore. That over a period of three months made about $10,000 from people who listened to the podcast, saw that webinar registration, opted in and went through that whole webinar sequence.
You can get a little bit trickier with it if you want and the idea is we always send folks to the show notes page so we can capture them. Not only are those pixels capturing folks the email system but we’re getting PushCrew, ManyChat on there, anything that we can capture and control that audience and follow-up. We’re trying to be everywhere to those people. They’re all segmenting themselves along the entire way so they’re getting tagged and all of that stuff.
Does every podcast do it that way or do you have somewhere it’s not associated with an affiliate?
Some are more general. We have about six or so affiliate products but a handful of those, we go deeper on. We don’t spread the decks. For the more general ones, we have a sequence that are the ten favorite tools that we use for our marketing. That’s our stack. That will most likely be the opt-in. Then from there, we can then figure out what they’re interested in if they’re engaging with that email or purchasing. It’s another way to dive deeper into that way.
With our podcast, we have a handful of criteria that we look for our podcast guests. One of them is do they have an affiliate product that meets certain pricing criteria that we can get behind? If they do, we’re interested in having them on our podcast and we’ll talk about what the tool does and then do this sequence. We also use our podcasting as a branding publicity thing. If somebody has got a bestselling book or they’re a big name and are well-known in the industry but maybe don’t have an affiliate product, we’re willing to bring those people on because that’s going to help grow the podcast and help get more eyeballs on what we’re doing.
We’ve had David Allen on who did Getting Things Done and Mike Michalowicz who did Profit First. They don’t have affiliate products but they’re well-known names who are The New York Times bestsellers that most people in this entrepreneur space know their name. It’s a credibility booster to us. It brings more people to the show. It brings more people into that ecosystem. Then those people, although they listen to that podcast and we didn’t have any offer for them ideally, they’re going to listen to future episodes and we will have offers for them in the future.
It’s the whole building goodwill and then make an offer. I just had Mike on my podcast when he launched Clockwork. He was a great guest. He was a lot of fun.
Ironically, he bought one of our affiliate products and then we reached out to him because we saw his name and then had him on our show. We’re going to be on his. We love getting a little creative, thinking a little bit of long-term. A lot of the folks go for the sale too quickly when we’re talking the traffic. That’s almost like that paradigm shift, we have this turnaround podcasters. They are not thinking, “How can I upload some revenue for my listeners?”
We’ve gotten to a point with the affiliate products that we get people referring others to our link instead of the main thing because they were like, “You need to see what these guys are doing. You need to get their bonuses. You need to get in their ecosystem.” We’ve gotten to a point where a lot of people refer to our affiliate links instead of the actual product creator’s page when they tell people to buy our product. That has brought this interesting thing where now people are discovering us as a result of our affiliate products as well, like the example of Mike Michalowicz. He bought a ThriveCart, which is a product that we promote. He bought it through our link. We noticed his email come through our little feed of people who bought. We were like, “It’s Mike Michalowicz of Profit First. I love his book. He got it on my shelf.” We reached out to him and said, “Do you want to be on the podcast?” There’s all this symbiosis that’s going on between all of these things that are going, and everything feeds everything else.
That’s the name of the game, especially with traffic and selling. You’ve got to have the right combination of brand awareness, providing content, providing goodwill, making offers and finding that perfect formula is what we all do in business. We all try and figure it out. After running two podcasts, that podcast perused the absolute best quality leads. I don’t understand why. I have an idea. I have my assumptions but I get people who reach out to me that are like, “Can I give you money?” Almost literally that’s what they’re saying. It’s like, “Whatever you’re selling, I’m in.” I love podcasting. It’s great.
People who listen to podcasts, they are people who love to consume content. If they’re listening to podcasts, especially longer form podcasts like our shows, our shows are usually minimum an hour these days. Sometimes they stretch an hour and a half because we go deep with people. Anybody who’s listening to an hour and a half show with our guest, there’s a good chance by the end of that episode that that guest has well indoctrinated themselves with our listeners and they’re going to be more interested in going down the rabbit hole with them.
It’s like an hour and a half long webinar. It’s spending time with you. As long as you’ve captured their attention, you’ve provided that goodwill, there’s a high likelihood that they’re going to want to take action and take that next step with you. I want to dive a little bit deeper on webinars because I haven’t had anybody on talk about affiliate marketing like you do with webinars. Has your strategy with affiliate webinars always been this custom intro and custom outro? Tell me a little bit about that journey because that’s super high leverage right there.
It always starts for us with relationships. We’re not the types who are just promoting everybody and we’ll start there. I wouldn’t recommend doing that because we like to use the products. We like to get to know the product owner and have goodwill already between us so we can work together as a team to create something amazing. Once we tick all those boxes and we know we’re working with someone cool here and the products are good and we’re going to make enough money, that’s when we’ll probably do a live webinar. We did this with designer Paul Clifford and he had a new offer. We knew it’s a great product. We love him. We tested that out and then that’s one that we’ve turned evergreen or about to switch on. Typically, it starts like that. It’s a live webinar. We’re not super concerned if we have a ton of people on there. We don’t always do, and that’s okay because we know our automation and our traffic is going to back us up in the long run. It’s that long-term thinking.
We’ve done quite a few live webinars. We’ve been doing online marketing since ’07. We went full-time at it in 2009 and automated webinars came into the picture until maybe 2010, 2011 when Rich Schefren and Mike Filsaime started going deep with them. Back then, live webinars were pretty much all we were doing. Nowadays, if somebody comes to us and says, “Can we do a live webinar to your list?” We look at the offer and we say, “Yes. This looks like it would be a good offer for our list.” We’ll run live with them and then we’ll take that recording and automate that.
Our big thing is automation. We don’t want to be in a position where we’re having to run one or even multiple webinars per week. They’re time-consuming. There’s a lot of preparation. There’s a lot of marketing that goes into loading up these webinars. If we can automate that stuff and make them work, the conversion rate is not as great as if you did it live. Probably, for us, we see about 50% of what we do if we did it live. For us, the automation factor is worth it.
When did this idea of the custom intro and outro come into play? Where did you see that first?
I’ve got to give credit where credit is due. I had Sean Vosler on the podcast. This was probably 2014 or so. He broke down that strategy that he was doing. He was promoting ClickFunnels at the time doing that exact strategy. He broke that down on the podcast that I had with him and we adopted it, tweaked it, modified it and ran with it.
I’ve been following Sean for a little while and he commented on a couple of my posts. I’ve never met him personally. We’ve exchanged a couple of messages but I’m going to go listen to that podcast.
Our podcast is Hustle and Flowchart Podcast. If we were smart about it, we would have matched our business brand with our podcast. Our podcast is fairly silly and fairly lighthearted. We do get a lot of good depth of info out of our guests but we also just goof around, have fun and learn about our guests a lot too. We wanted a title, a brand and a feeling with the show that showed off that personality and that goofiness. We all have fun. We’re all real people. No matter how big of a guru you are, fart jokes are still funny to everybody. We wanted to be lighthearted and Evergreen Profits felt very corporate. We have two brands now. We have Evergreen Profit brand and we have Hustle and Flowchart brand.
It’s a synopsis of who we are too. I’m more of the hustler mindset, the quick start. That’s more the analytical like, “Let’s map this all out.” On the show, you’re going to get a combo of those brains and it’s cool because you have different questions then. You’re pulling out different things for different people listening. It’s the best part of our business and we enjoy it the most. That’s why we like to automate it a lot, so we can do more of the podcast.
Automating is the key. You’ve got to build systems for everything otherwise you’re going to be hustling all the time and that’s a recipe for burnout. Being the automation guys and the systems guys building this Evergreen stuff, can you give us some insight on the big things on the automation side and the systems side that have made the biggest impact in your Evergreen piece of the business? Is there anything that jumps out more? There’s been so much new technology that jumps out all the time. It was push notifications and now it’s bots. What do you think has made the biggest impact in the world of online marketing for the benefit of systems and automation?
The traffic was huge so that traffic system we were explaining, overall that is the big game changer for our business. Folks who have tried it, they’ve said the same exact thing. I love clarity and simplicity though. We’ve been coached by some folks. If you can hone in on what your KPIs are, these key indicators in your business that will give you a result and focus on these three to four numbers, things like conversion rate, traffic and all that folks on the money per se, that’s the result.
If you can always optimize those things, that will get you the result, and then check in every week. Set goals, see how far you’re off, the change between your goal and the actual. It’s the little incremental changes, this is what the small optimizations to add to the page as to the webinars and then you’re going to slowly start to see those numbers keep creeping up every week if your eyes are on the ball. We’ve done that. It was that big change. Legitimately, every week you see bumps 3% to 5% or more and sometimes consistently every week. It doesn’t take a radical change. That’s the big thing.
That’s good fundamentals because for a long time, we had this idea in our heads that we’re trying to find these big wins. “Let’s go do this launch and put $1 million in our bank account. Let’s go find a webinar that’s going to convert at 20% that we could turn and open the floodgates and it’s going to make us $10,000 a day.” We’re constantly looking for these big wins. Every time we went into one of these things getting excited about it, they would always fall lower than our expectation and we beat ourselves up over it. The biggest gamechanger in our business is finding two or three things that work and make small optimizations. Try to improve 2% to 3% each week on your small optimizations and it adds up over weeks and months to really big results.
From a tool standpoint, there has been a lot of new tools, automations and technologies that have come onto the market that we’ve definitely leveraged and have good results with, bots being one of them. The way we use ManyChat is we put it on all of our offer pages. Any of our courses, if we’re doing an affiliate product where we have our own custom landing page, we’re going to put a little ManyChat code on there and ask people if they have questions. We’ll close sales straight through a chat with other people’s products. People will ask us questions about the affiliate product we’re promoting, we’ll answer them, and close sales. We have a salesperson on our team who helps us do a lot of that.
If you can get personalization into your marketing of some sort, it doesn’t have to be you. I enjoy talking to people. I don’t do it all day long. I’ll pop in there a couple of times, answer a few questions. I’ll even shoot these personalized Loom videos. Loom is a free little app on Google apps. The feedback that we get is insane and the messages are like, “I did not think I would get a personal message from you. You just sold me. I don’t even need to ask anymore.” It’s an instant credibility booster, value or trust bonder. It’s amazing and that’s how we got Mike Michalowicz. We had him on our podcast saying, “You do better support and marketing than product owners typically do their own business.” ManyChat is great for that.
We hired an operations manager and she’s been working with us. What she’s been doing is all of these systems like some of the ones we’ve talked about. We’ve got a ton of systems in our business. We’ve been making these little Loom videos and sending them over to her. She’s been going through them, making checklists and documenting every single thing we do in the business. Ideally, if Joe and I want to leave for a month, she has all of the systems SOP’d out. We can bring in temporary work. We can hire people full-time and all she has to do is link them over to these SOPs that she’s built. It’s a little checklist with the Loom video embedded in it and somebody could be up to speed within a couple of hours.
At our new company, I have a full-time chief operating officer. I’m the fire starter, I’m not the finisher and it’s like night and day difference. That business is running completely on autopilot. It’s the most liberating feeling in the world so I completely hear you there.
You don’t need a full-time so you can get someone in the States for $20 an hour as long as they have great organizational skills. They check all your boxes. They fit with your culture and they have that brain for operations and getting stuff done. We both have it in different ways. I’m probably more like you, Joel, it’s like a quick starter but either way, everyone needs that that person or that manager.
We’ve talked about a ton. You’re traffic guys, you’re awareness guys and you have some cool things going on. You broke down your paid traffic strategy which was leveraging Google with highly targeted long tail keywords, buyer intent, and sending traffic to those pages and then retargeting on other platforms to push them to the sale. Going back to that, I’m going to recap. I’m used to paying such expensive costs on Facebook. I usually only sell high-ticket products for our own programs. You were looking for at least $100 commission sale and you usually have 50% ROI, which means your cost for sale is usually $50 for that strategy.
Usually, the product is giving us a much higher commission than that. That’s the conservative number.
Your baseline is 100?
Yes. Nobody is cold on Facebook. Everybody has already experienced the product. Everybody has already experienced us, and everybody already knows our opinions on the products by the time they see that ad. That’s where the real magic happens and why we get such a low cost per sale. A lot of people are scared of Google ads. They don’t know the cost. Back in the day, Google Ads got out of control with costs. They got really high cost per clicks. It was because they were the only game in town for traffic for a while. When Facebook came and started eating their lunch a little bit, surprisingly, Google Ad prices started to go down. Now Google Ads are very affordable. It does vary niche to niche. If you’re trying to sell life insurance or something, you still might pay $50 a click on Google. If you’re in a marketing space like we are and we’re trying to go after long tail keywords around tools that only entrepreneurs would be interested in, we’d get on average $0.50 a click from Google Ads.
Then we get the retargeting and it does all the magic for you. It might sometimes take five to seven touches but the whole aggregate, that’s the number that matters the most.
When we are retargeting them on Facebook, we have been known to pay $5, $6, $7 a click on Facebook but these people who are clicking on those Facebook Ads are pretty much the hottest leads that we’ve found.
I’m used to paying $3, $4 a click on Facebook. That’s what we’re talking about, your traffic strategy and your affiliate strategy and those retargeting sequences can be webinars as well for high-ticket products and high-ticket programs or low ticket. It doesn’t have to be a high-ticket for your invisible podcast funnel which we talked about, which was brilliant. Your podcast is the blog that you would do on the paid traffic side. You’re talking about one niche topic on that podcast and who is interested, you send them to your call to action which is grab the cheat sheet which is your show notes. Then you retarget them with the relevant offer there. What would you say is more effective of those two, the paid traffic funnel or the invisible podcast funnel?
Hands down, the paid traffic funnel. The podcast funnel works well but it’s our way of justifying and running a podcast and having it being monetized. We do make money off of the podcast. Most of our money comes from our paid funnels.
It’s a much longer-term play as the podcast. If you’re going for a more sustainable direct to revenue path definitely, the Google and the Facebook retargeting route is the way to go.
Matt, we’re at the similar Facebook group when we’re talking about podcasts and somebody is like, “I’m about to approach a million downloads. I should start to sponsor.” If I had a million downloads, I’d be retired.
Here’s a paradigm shift we had. We’ve toyed around with the idea of sponsorships. We haven’t done it yet. We have some people we’re talking to who are very interested. We’ll see how that pans out with a pretty big company but it’s aggregate. If you’re a small podcast, you don’t need a million downloads to make money with that thing. You could have 1,000 downloads a month if it’s the right people that you’re talking to. Think of all the other reach you have inside your business, Facebook, videos, ads, all these stuff. That all adds up and essentially that can sometimes be more valuable than an actual podcast downloaded number. Package that stuff up into a sponsorship package, someone with 1,000 downloads or wherever. It could probably demand more money than they think.
We’ve shifted with our podcasts trying to become this media company where we can sell sponsorships. We actually just broke the top 100 on iTunes. We’re not the biggest podcast in the world but what we do have to offer sponsors is we’ve got a giant mailing list. We do have podcast listeners. We’ve got a blog that we can rotate banners through that get about 20,000 impressions a week. Whenever we boost Facebook posts, we can get those up to 100,000 reaches with Facebook. We’ve got social media followings. We’ve got Facebook groups were involved in. If somebody was to come in and sponsor our show, we would give them access to that entire platform, our entire media brand that we’ve built. We can legitimately get a sponsor in front of probably about 250,000 eyeballs each week based on some of the math that we’ve done and only about 10,000 of those would come from our podcast.
It’s more money that we’re all sitting on than we think.
We have good friends that have a podcast that gets about three million downloads a month. They just invited us up and we had lunch with them because they haven’t figured out how to monetize that yet. They have a handful of sponsors but they’re still trying to figure out, “How do I ramp up the income with this?”
There are the two different types of people in the world, the brand creators and the conversion people. I had this conversation with Eric Siu. I flew out to LA. He works in people who have a million-person email list and blog followers. They’re great at attracting people but terrible at converting them into buyers. It’s like I’d rather have a small mighty tribe than a massive one that I’ve become an icon but nobody is paying me anything and so I have this reputation that doesn’t pay.
I can understand the aspect of wanting to be very protective of your audience. At some point, you’ve got to figure you’re providing enough value that you can make that ask. The Gary Vaynerchuk Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook, he has done enough jabs, start hooking a little.
You have tons of value that you can provide. This episode was awesome. Where can my audience connect with you guys?
We made a custom link. Go to EvergreenProfits.com/Joel. We made a custom page where they can go to that page and you can download our book. We released a book on traffic called The Evergreen Traffic Playbook. We just launched that book and we released it for the first time. You can go get a free copy of it over at EvergreenProfits.com/Joel. It’s a free digital download and we’ll send that over. If you go there and you opt-in, you’ll be in our ecosystem. You’ll see the other stuff that we were talking about on this episode. That book explains out the exact same strategies that we talked about on this episode as well.
We’ve got a bunch of our audience. Go subscribe to their podcast there. I had a blast and hopefully, you had a blast. We talked about a ton of stuff. We chatted webinars, traffic, audience building invisible funnels all these other stuff and my marketing audience is going to love it. I appreciate you coming on, Matt and Joe. For our audience, make sure you go and connect with them. Find and stalk them on Facebook. Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe from EvergreenProfits.com and Hustle and Flowchart. Thank you so much for dropping your knowledge and everyone else, I’ll see you in the next episode. Take care.
- Evergreen Profits
- The Hustle and Flowchart Podcast
- Getting Things Done
- Mike Michalowicz – previous episode
- Profit First
- Sean Vosler – previous episode of The Hustle and Flowchart Podcast
- Eric Siu
- Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook
- Evergreen Profits on Facebook
About Matt Wolfe and Joe Fier
oe Fier & Matt Wolfe are the co-founders of Evergreen Profits and absolutely LOVE showing people how simple it really is to get seen online in competitive industries. They get pumped up to share their system of driving targeted traffic that turns into leads and sales to business owners who want to scale (but have failed in the past). They aren’t an agency (they’re pretty much the anti-agency).
They started in business together 12 years ago and haven’t stopped learning, testing, and scaling since.
They also started their podcasting career in 2010 and it’s been their passion ever since. Now they have a fast-growing small business podcast called the Hustle & Flowchart Podcast. It gives listeners an opportunity to learn uncommon ways to live and work that allow for a happier and more profitable life.